Author Topic: Quite a discussion going on at LQ called "Unionism at Fort Wayne Seminary?"  (Read 17277 times)

Charles_Austin

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The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS writes:
Charles, that is not quite true.  It is the ELCA that the LCMS Convention has declared "not Lutheran" enough.  They have not declared that of every member of the ELCA. 

I comment:
Oh, please! That is a distinction without a difference and a really weird argument. They declare my church body heterodox. But then they can interrogate various members individually (or would a group like STS count) and say, "Well! Not them! They're o.k." That is very strange ecclesiology and church discipline; but even if it exists, it does not undo what I consider to be the assault on the church body in which I try to minister.

grabau14

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Well, the Missourian would say that those ELCA pastors and parishes who remain steadfast to the Word and sacraments as confessed in the BoC would be a part of the invisible church. 

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither

Charles_Austin

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Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither writes:
Well, the Missourian would say that those ELCA pastors and parishes who remain steadfast to the Word and sacraments as confessed in the BoC would be a part of the invisible church.

I muse:
And since all of us in the ELCA hold to the Word, the sacraments, and the confessions, why can't this "invisible church" be in fellowship?
Let us not get twisty-turny about this. We all know what the LC-MS thinks of the ELCA, and in case it slips our mind, certain folks online keep reminding us.
The fact is that we are not in fellowship and are not likely to be in fellowship very soon. In my opinion, this hurts us all. 

ptmccain

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No, Matthew, quite the contrary. They are members of the true visible church on earth, the Lutheran Church, which, as any good "Missourian" should know, is not coterminus with, or even necessarily, The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.

A church body however which enters into communion fellowship with Reformed Churches thereby demonstrates that it can not be regarded as a genuinely Lutheran Church.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 09:59:39 PM by ptmccain »

Erma_S._Wolf

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Please remember that not all LCMS pastors despise you. Actually it is only a minority. Luther Quest is surely ugly! It is not representative.

FWIW, I was a founding member of STS. Never regretted it. See you in Mundelein.

Peace, JOHN HANNAH, STS and LCMS

Pastor Hannah, thank you. (And may your tribe increase!)

In peace,
Erma Wolf, STS

ptmccain

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Many of us LCMS pastors do not "despise" any individual ELCA pastor. What we do actually abhor is the false teaching that has the ELCA in a vice-like death grip. And to that extent, we must not, and can not ever, concede that the ELCA is a genuinelly Lutheran Church. That there are Lutherans in the ELCA is indisputable and as I've said here often before, and will repeat here again, all LCMS pastors who love Christ and His Word share a genuine concern for all ELCA pastors and members alike who are striving to be faithful to God's Word, who have, and continue, to stand in protest over against the formal and official doctrinal positions of the ELCA that are, and remain, contrary to Sacred Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

As for what happened at CTS Fort Wayne. Seminary officials there are responsible for whatever decisions or agreements or understandings were in place at the time of the STS meeting there. And I'm sure appropriate conversations will continue over what happened , but LutherQuest is no more a responsible forum for trying to "figure all this out" anymore than this forum is.

As for LutherQuest. It is not a LCMS forum. It has a cast of characters on it every bit as, let us say, "colorful," as any found here, on the other end of the spectrum no doubt, but colorful in their own right.


Dave Benke

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a) it's OK to have one thread on Lutherquest on alpb, but I've been told that if we have three threads there's this kind of matrix revolution computer virus thing that happens, and you'll all come to my house in Queens with hoes and pitchforks and string me up. It's not about Mr. Anderson.  It's about Rev. Benke.  They've got the Benkebitmebug over there and they've got it bad.
b) at some point there should be a thread on this particular site about etiquette and attitudes concerning women pastors by those who don't cotton to women's ordination.  Name-calling and shunning of women pastors are two of the etiquette items I'd like to begin by speaking against when that thread is taken up, so put me on the line there.


Dave Benke

grabau14

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Paul,

You are correct, those churches do comprise the true visible church on earth.  Missouri does not delight in calling the ELCA heterodox, we are saddened by it.  This Thursday, I will meet with ELCA clergy during our montly Sasse study.  I delight in joining with them in study.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP
"The freedom with which we are concerned in the Christian feast - the
feast of the Eucharist - is not the freedom to devise new texts but
the liberation of the world and ourselves from death. Only this can
make us free, enabling us to accept truth and to love one another in
truth." Benedict XVI (Feast of Faith, p. 65)

grabau14

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Bishop Benke,

If by name calling, do we mean C.S. Lewis when he said, "There were prophetesses even in the old Testament times. Prophetesses, not priestesses."  That is where I get the title "priestess."  I believe C.S. Lewis is correct.  When we change the sex of the office of the holy ministry, we will inevitably change the name of God (as we have seen done in the ELCA and other churches that have women's ordination).

I also have a hard time cozying up with priestesses when our brothers in Finnland, Sweden and elsewhere are persecuted because of their refusal to accept women's ordination  (Thank God for the Luther of our times from Kenya!).  It is bad form on our part I believe.

I could care less about a ELCA pastor being celebrant and a Missouri pastor preaching (I'm sure that ELCA pastor said a good mass), what frosts me is the acceptance of women's ordination.  We allowed Gnosticism to rear its ugly head at the campus of CTS.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

Richard Johnson

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I also have a hard time cozying up with priestesses . . . We allowed Gnosticism to rear its ugly head at the campus of CTS.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP



b) at some point there should be a thread on this particular site about etiquette and attitudes concerning women pastors by those who don't cotton to women's ordination.  Name-calling and shunning of women pastors are two of the etiquette items I'd like to begin by speaking against when that thread is taken up, so put me on the line there.


Dave Benke

You see, Rev'd., that's what Bishop Benke is talking about. What you just did.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

John Dornheim

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I think that most pastors that I know would not appreciate being referred to as a "priestess."

John Dornheim

grabau14

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I also have a hard time cozying up with priestesses . . . We allowed Gnosticism to rear its ugly head at the campus of CTS.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP



b) at some point there should be a thread on this particular site about etiquette and attitudes concerning women pastors by those who don't cotton to women's ordination.  Name-calling and shunning of women pastors are two of the etiquette items I'd like to begin by speaking against when that thread is taken up, so put me on the line there.


Dave Benke

You see, Rev'd., that's what Bishop Benke is talking about. What you just did.

The question is will I be cordial when I speak with female pastor?  Of course.  But should that cordial behavior inhibit speach?  No .  I have a hard time associating, chumming it up with women pastors when our brothers who refuse to accept women's ordination are either kept from being ordained "Will you accept communion from a woman's hand?"  If you answer no, than no Holy Orders for you (unless the Luther of our times from Kenya rides to the rescue).

Do I see women pastors as a continuation of the Gnostic heresy?  Yes I do.  Do those churches that actively push for said practice also question the language of who God is.  Yes.  We saw it with the UCC who questioned the divinity of Christ (i.e. His Lordship), there are ELCA churches and pastors who actively use the phrase God as mother, etc...  So I have a hard time not putting the two together.  Gnosticism questioned and challenged the catholic scriptural understanding of who God is.  So I am not surprised in the least when said churches that have women's ordination start to question who God is and how He has revealed Himself to us.

I can accept all sorts of things, but the issue of women's ordination is one that I cannot abide.  It is contrary to the Scriptures and to the catholic tradition.  

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP
"The freedom with which we are concerned in the Christian feast - the
feast of the Eucharist - is not the freedom to devise new texts but
the liberation of the world and ourselves from death. Only this can
make us free, enabling us to accept truth and to love one another in
truth." Benedict XVI (Feast of Faith, p. 65)




grabau14

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I think that most pastors that I know would not appreciate being referred to as a "priestess."

John Dornheim

Take it up with C.S. Lewis

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

Erma_S._Wolf

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I think that most pastors that I know would not appreciate being referred to as a "priestess."

 That's an affirmative.  Although I've heard worse. ("Pastorette" -- eeccckk! :P)

Pastor (smile when you say that, partner) Erma Wolf, STS
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 12:09:06 AM by Erma_S._Wolf »

John Dornheim

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I think that most pastors that I know would not appreciate being referred to as a "priestess."

John Dornheim

Take it up with C.S. Lewis

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

It wasn't he who I had in mind. I suspect he'd be more cordial, though.

John Dornheim