LCMS (and ELCA) Distinctions

[hansen]

Well, the thread was started by Pr. Tibbetts, with:

"Okay, I think I've got 'moderates,' 'conservatives,' and 'confessionalists' pretty straight.  But what does one call an ELCA, uh, 'conservative' who would *not* accept women's ordination?"

So, as amazing as it seems (given the thread title) it looks like we are still on-topic.  But maybe Pr. Tibbetts might consider changing the title to something referring to ELCA pastors who object to female ordination.  

[Steven Tibbetts]

But maybe Pr. Tibbetts might consider changing the title to something referring to ELCA pastors who object to female ordination.  

Actually, I began this "Letters to the Editors" thread "Re: Sept '04 *Omnium Gatherum*" and "Subject" titled it as I did to refer to the specific item in that section of that issue of Forum Letter.  So, even if the Forum software permitted it, I'd not be inclined to change the subject title.

I find it interesting that, 8 months later, this thread is still alive.

spt+

[Brian Stoffregen]

"Okay, I think I've got 'moderates,' 'conservatives,' and 'confessionalists' pretty straight.  But what does one call an ELCA, uh, 'conservative' who would *not* accept women's ordination?"

Crypto-LCMSers?

[Gladfelteri]

Crypto-LCMSers?

Crypto-Catholics?

[Brian Stoffregen]

Crypto-Catholics?

When the ELCA was being formed, I promoted the name: "The Catholic Church -- Martinized."

[MSchimmel]

I suspect that your "hunch" is correct.  In fact, I'll gladly stipulate that it is correct: these congregations did not "work through their bishop's office."  SO WHAT?  At most they are guilty of rudeness toward their bishop and bishop's staff.

Nope. They are breaking the rules of their own constitutions. To quote from the model -- with boldface added:

*C9.01. Authority to call a pastor shall be in this congregation by at least a two-thirds majority ballot vote of members present and voting at a meeting legally called for that purpose. Before a call is issued, the officers, or a committee elected by [this congregation][the Congregation Council] to recommend the call, shall seek the advice and help of the bishop of the synod.

*C9.02. Only a member of the clergy roster of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America or a candidate for the roster of ordained ministers who has been recommended for the congregation by the synodical bishop may be called as a pastor of this congregation....

Sorry for bringing a really old thread back from the dead - but the interpretation of this section of the constitution implied by the bold and color added misses a very different - yet plain, reasoned reading.  Let's change the bolding and colors around a bit and see what you think.

*C9.02. Only a member of the clergy roster of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America or a candidate for the roster of ordained ministers who has been recommended for the congregation by the synodical bishop may be called as a pastor of this congregation.

There are no commas that would lead one to think that the "who has been recommended for ..." phrase modifies the "...member of the roster..." section in the way that it clearly does the "... candidate for the roster..." section. 

[G.Edward]

Richard,

If there are those who see it as a "ministerium" as you say some do, that fine.  But what is wrong with your colleagues in your synodical conference?  What SPECIFIC issues do you object to among your fellow non-STS ELCA pastors that you need to subscribe to a "rule?"  You say that it isn't a "super-vow," but an upholding of your ordination vows made in the ELCA (or predessor bodies).  Don't you think there might be pastors who aren't STS members are upholding their ordination vows?  I plan to uphold my vows when I'm ordained, do I need to join the STS to show this?  No.  Will I seek "ministerium" among my synodical colleagues?  Sure, and I'm sure you do too, but I don't need a subscription to a rule to do this.  Does this mean I have a "Protestant" view of the clergy?  Does this mean I'm one of these "low-church" types of clergy.  Certainly not!  I don't need to practice a "self-chosen piety" (Col. 2:23) to serve in the pastoral office.

Steven, I can only speak for my chapter of the Society - Susquehanna (corresponding to the Upper and Lower Susquehanna Synods of the ELCA).  The pastors I know who have subscribed to the rule of the society are much more active in their conferences and at the synod level than the typical parish pastor.  Far from being a requirement, it is a voluntary association for those pastors who find it helpful in upholding and faithfully fulfilling their ordination vows.  That doesn't mean pastors outside of the society will not fulfill their ordination vows faithfully.  For me the society provides a level of collegiality and accountability beyond what I have found in the local ecumenical ministerium, my conference, and my synod.  And some days in ministry that collegiality and accountability makes all the difference in the quality of my ministry to the people I have been called to shepherd.  God bless and keep you in your discernment and development.