Author Topic: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg  (Read 21289 times)

navyman

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2007, 06:09:56 PM »
http://www.elca.org/wittenberg/
I have combed this site looking to see when Gottesdienst is offered and couldn't find it.  Are the Lutherans in Wittenberg expected to compromise and worship with the unionists in their churches in Luther's city???
Glad to see the LCMS partnered center will offer true Lutheran Gottesdienst.
Praise God!


Thanks Lutherman, sure won't find in the ELCA, unless they plan to change their Neo-Lutheran Theology, inclusion for all, and the list could go on. Yes, I'm also happey to see it, at least they will get the whole truth of Scripture, and Lutheran Doctrine, instead of bits and pieces, like no other!

Don Whitbeck

LutherMan

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2007, 06:11:46 PM »
Yes Pr. Stoffregen, it is the Lord's Supper.  But putting your Scriptural interpretation vs.the LCMS and/or WELS  interpretation on the Sacrament aside, let me ask you this:

If you have a policy against wearing shoes in your house and I am a guest in your house and I insist on tromping all over your carpets with my boots or shoes on wouldn't I be in violation of your policy and hospitality?  Not to mention a grossly rude guest?

LutherMan

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2007, 06:16:13 PM »
It is possible to study history, discuss theology, engage in social service projects, do theological and historical research, drink a few beers and engage in some sightseeing without having to agree on doctrine or without trying to impose one's views on another. Why couldn't a joint "Wittenberg Center" allow this to happen?
Because the LCMS/SELK group wants to plant a mission and hold Divine Services according to their confession.  Bringing the Gospel to the unchurched seems to be the primary focus as The Lutheran Witness reports:.
Quote
That’s the driving reason four Lutheran partners are working to open a multifaceted Lutheran ministry center in the heart of “Luther land.” Scheduled dedication date: Reformation Day 2008.

navyman

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2007, 06:18:42 PM »
It is possible to study history, discuss theology, engage in social service projects, do theological and historical research, drink a few beers and engage in some sightseeing without having to agree on doctrine or without trying to impose one's views on another. Why couldn't a joint "Wittenberg Center" allow this to happen?

It will never happen!  As the Pope John said to Hanson, You don't believe as we do!  As the LC MS, Wels, and other Lutheran Bodies, would say to us, you don't believe as we do and never have, and never will.  Why is it so important to set down and drink beer, so we can get some one drunk and have the drink talk instead of the person talkng?

Don Whitbeck

frluther1517

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2007, 06:21:22 PM »
While I vaguely remember the story you have shared before.  What bothers me more is that people expect to receive the sacrament in a place they are not welcome to receive.  To walk into a WELS, LCMS, RCC or Orthodox parish expecting to receive the eucharist bothers me more.  It bothers me because it makes the eucharist an individual entitlement, without respecting the doctrine, and teachings of the ecclesial communion that is celebrating it.  It is uncharitable to demand to receive something that the parish is not allowed to give.  It seems to me selfish to expect a pastor/priest to violate the teachings of their church, so that one can take communion.  I think discerning the body really comes into play here.  
Is it not the Lord's Supper, rather than a WLES's Supper or LCMS's Supper or RCC's Supper or Orthodox Supper? Do we not come at the invitation of the Lord?

I believe that Paul argues in 1 Corinthians 11 that when the Lord's Supper is used to divide believers -- the body of Christ, it is being misused.


Brian-   We Christians are already divided and not using the Lord's Supper as a weapon to further division!  How simple is this???  Because the Church is divided the Lord's Supper is celebrated in WELS parishes, LCMS parishes, RCC, etc.  Each of these different divisions of the church, which granted wound the Church, still have their own understandings and doctrine as to who is allowed to receive.  If the Church was not divided then we would all be welcome at each other's altars, but we're not.  One must respect the house rules, so to speak.   Further the sacrament is also a sign of unity.  Where there is true disunity over the fundamentals of the faith then there is no unity and celebrating the sacrament in those circumstances might be bringing damnation upon ourselves, condemning us of our disunity.  

navyman

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2007, 06:28:14 PM »
While I vaguely remember the story you have shared before.  What bothers me more is that people expect to receive the sacrament in a place they are not welcome to receive.  To walk into a WELS, LCMS, RCC or Orthodox parish expecting to receive the eucharist bothers me more.  It bothers me because it makes the eucharist an individual entitlement, without respecting the doctrine, and teachings of the ecclesial communion that is celebrating it.  It is uncharitable to demand to receive something that the parish is not allowed to give.  It seems to me selfish to expect a pastor/priest to violate the teachings of their church, so that one can take communion.  I think discerning the body really comes into play here.  
Is it not the Lord's Supper, rather than a WLES's Supper or LCMS's Supper or RCC's Supper or Orthodox Supper? Do we not come at the invitation of the Lord?

I believe that Paul argues in 1 Corinthians 11 that when the Lord's Supper is used to divide believers -- the body of Christ, it is being misused.


Brian-   We Christians are already divided and not using the Lord's Supper as a weapon to further division!  How simple is this???  Because the Church is divided the Lord's Supper is celebrated in WELS parishes, LCMS parishes, RCC, etc.  Each of these different divisions of the church, which granted wound the Church, still have their own understandings and doctrine as to who is allowed to receive.  If the Church was not divided then we would all be welcome at each other's altars, but we're not.  One must respect the house rules, so to speak.   Further the sacrament is also a sign of unity.  Where there is true disunity over the fundamentals of the faith then there is no unity and celebrating the sacrament in those circumstances might be bringing damnation upon ourselves, condemning us of our disunity.  


While attending a Catholic Mass for a young man who had passed away, the Preiast made the announment that those who were members of the Roman Catholic faith are welcome to take commuinon.  Those who are not may come up and recieve an blessing, and that you must come forward with your arms crossed, to rec'd.  The reason given is that they only recognize Confirmed Catholics as members of this church.

My wife and I went up for the blessing.  We hav also attended church at a LC MS, many times, and have never taken commuinon because we weren't members of that body and out of respect for their beliefs.

Don Whitbeck

LutherMan

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2007, 09:48:26 PM »
Quote
Why is it so important to set down and drink beer
It's a prerequisite to being Lutheran. ;)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2007, 11:50:41 PM »
If you have a policy against wearing shoes in your house and I am a guest in your house and I insist on tromping all over your carpets with my boots or shoes on wouldn't I be in violation of your policy and hospitality?  Not to mention a grossly rude guest?
I have been a guest a many a parishioner's house where they take off their shoes at the door, I can only remember one instance where they politely asked if I would remove mine. In every case, I kept my shoes on -- which is the practice in our house.
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John Dornheim

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2007, 12:44:10 AM »
Charles-

While I vaguely remember the story you have shared before.  What bothers me more is that people expect to receive the sacrament in a place they are not welcome to receive.  To walk into a WELS, LCMS, RCC or Orthodox parish expecting to receive the eucharist bothers me more.  It bothers me because it makes the eucharist an individual entitlement, without respecting the doctrine, and teachings of the ecclesial communion that is celebrating it.  It is uncharitable to demand to receive something that the parish is not allowed to give.  It seems to me selfish to expect a pastor/priest to violate the teachings of their church, so that one can take communion.  I think discerning the body really comes into play here. 

In the ELCA, where most of our lay people aren't schooled in the specific differences between Lutheran bodies, it is conceivable that someone could find themselves in a Lutheran church in all innocence and assume that because it was "Lutheran" if only in name, that they would be treated as though they were home.
Personally, when I travel or find myself off on a given Sunday, I normally seek out an Episcopal church because I am fairly certain that I will receive the Sacrament and the liturgy will be out of a book with which I am familiar.

John Dornheim

Charles_Austin

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2007, 04:26:42 AM »
Seems that eucharistic hospitality is as warm-ish and predictable a topic as s-*-x. But it is secondary to the thoughts that began this thread. With a Wittenberg center open and underway, is it impossible for the LC-MS and its small German partner church to engage in Reformation research and study with other Lutherans in a facility with programs for scholars and tourists? This would be quite apart from any mission of any church body. Why should American tourists and scholars, for instance, be confronted with dual and competing think tanks in Wittenberg?
Couldn't the LC-MS and the SELK think that their involvement in scholarly research with the rest of us just might make us more "Lutheran" than they think we are?
Or do they fear "contamination" if they do so? If that's the case, it sounds insecure to me.


LutherMan

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2007, 08:30:45 AM »
Could it be as simple that the SELK/LCMS group prefers to keep the focus truly Lutheran without the distractions ELCA's non-Lutheran partners bring to the table?  Just speculating here, and again it looks like the primary focus is to do mission work and hold Divine Service in Wittenberg. 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 08:34:15 AM by LutherMan »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2007, 09:56:22 AM »
Someone writes:
Could it be as simple that the SELK/LCMS group prefers to keep the focus truly Lutheran without the distractions ELCA's non-Lutheran partners bring to the table?

I ponder:
So are we going to deny the "rest" of the Reformation? Though Calvin and Zwingli and the others went some directions that we found untenable at the time, they, too, are heirs of Luther.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2007, 10:09:41 AM »
Someone writes:
Could it be as simple that the SELK/LCMS group prefers to keep the focus truly Lutheran without the distractions ELCA's non-Lutheran partners bring to the table?

I ponder:
So are we going to deny the "rest" of the Reformation? Though Calvin and Zwingli and the others went some directions that we found untenable at the time, they, too, are heirs of Luther.
"Untenable at the time"? How does the passage of time affect the truth and significance of the Real Presence?

LutherMan

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2007, 10:13:29 AM »
As was noted farther upstream, ELCA has had a presence in Wittenberg since 1999.  One wonders why they didn't feel compelled to start an authentic Lutheran mission in the birthplace of the reformation?

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Interesting Developments in Wittenberg
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2007, 10:36:28 AM »

I ponder:
So are we going to deny the "rest" of the Reformation? Though Calvin and Zwingli and the others went some directions that we found untenable at the time, they, too, are heirs of Luther.

Heirs only of Luther?  Why not also heirs of Hus.....and Erasmus?
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