Author Topic: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran  (Read 20966 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2007, 07:46:46 AM »
Don Whitbeck writes (re a professor mentioned upstream):
After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what.

I comment:
And is this not the dreaded ad hominem kind of comment that has no place in this discussion? Furthermore, it is about one who is not even personally involved here. We can criticize the views, but to apply this sort of "reasoning" to the analysis is just creepy.

Mike Bennett

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #226 on: October 10, 2007, 11:20:09 AM »
Don Whitbeck writes (re a professor mentioned upstream):
After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what.

I comment:
And is this not the dreaded ad hominem kind of comment that has no place in this discussion? Furthermore, it is about one who is not even personally involved here. We can criticize the views, but to apply this sort of "reasoning" to the analysis is just creepy.

Charles, the former bishop of my synod cited his own daughter's active lesbianism as essentially the foundation of his own views on that issue - both verbally in my presence, and in writing in the synod's supplement to The Lutheran.  I don't think he was making an ad hominem attack against himself.  Further, it's been observed that the increasing incidence of activities such as divorce, abortion, and homosexual activity within peoples' immediate families create more and more people who are unwilling to oppose those activities.  And that argument isn't an ad hominem either.  So is Don's observation an ad homimem and creepy simply because he's Don?  Wouldn't that be an ad hominem itself?

Mike Bennett  ::)
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

John Dornheim

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #227 on: October 10, 2007, 01:05:34 PM »
One should not automatically conclude that everyone immediately takes up the cause when a child shares their sexual orientation. I know of at least one prominent Lutheran (who is mentioned here from time to time) who holds fast to the traditionalist position while having two gay children. I am glad that Ralph Klein supports his son as he does but to automatically suggest that it is the reason that he holds to the position which he does is foolish. And, perhaps, irresponsible.
John Dornheim

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #228 on: October 10, 2007, 01:06:56 PM »
Mike Bennett wrote: Charles, the former bishop of my synod cited his own daughter's active lesbianism as essentially the foundation of his own views on that issue - both verbally in my presence, and in writing in the synod's supplement to The Lutheran.  I don't think he was making an ad hominem attack against himself.  Further, it's been observed that the increasing incidence of activities such as divorce, abortion, and homosexual activity within peoples' immediate families create more and more people who are unwilling to oppose those activities.

Tim Christ muses: Mike, I think you've hit the primary nail on the head, in terms of what is truly happening in the tension between Scripture, integrity of vows and commitments and personal experience. It's hardball all the way when the problems of the world suddenly erupt in the midst of one's own family, particularly the hot button social issues of the age. Self-justification runs all the way to the core in each of us, precisely at the point of salvation by grace through faith.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

navyman

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #229 on: October 10, 2007, 01:08:20 PM »
Don Whitbeck writes (re a professor mentioned upstream):
After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what.

I comment:
And is this not the dreaded ad hominem kind of comment that has no place in this discussion? Furthermore, it is about one who is not even personally involved here. We can criticize the views, but to apply this sort of "reasoning" to the analysis is just creepy.


Sorry Charles the truth is not an attack on anyone, if you didn't know this before, thats your problem.  You can also look at his web site, his support is widely known.

Don Whitbeck

John Dornheim

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #230 on: October 10, 2007, 01:16:50 PM »

Sorry Charles the truth is not an attack on anyone, if you didn't know this before, thats your problem.  You can also look at his web site, his support is widely known.

Don Whitbeck

You put forth the insinuation that the reason for Ralph's position was because his son is gay. You appear to be dismissing every other possible reason. Not only is it irresponsible but it is disrespectful of a man who you don't even know and have never, presumably, spoken with.
How many gay people do you know who have said that their parents have welcomed them with open arms when they reveal their orientation? What do you think gay people on this list would say about your insinuation?
Think about it, Don.

John Dornheim

Charles_Austin

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #231 on: October 10, 2007, 01:25:10 PM »
Mike Bennett writes:
Charles, the former bishop of my synod cited his own daughter's active lesbianism as essentially the foundation of his own views on that issue - both verbally in my presence, and in writing in the synod's supplement to The Lutheran.

I comment:
Not relevant to the current discussion.

Mike Bennett writes:
I don't think he was making an ad hominem attack against himself. 

I comment:
'Cause you can't do that.

Mike:
Further, it's been observed that the increasing incidence of activities such as divorce, abortion, and homosexual activity within peoples' immediate families create more and more people who are unwilling to oppose those activities.  And that argument isn't an ad hominem either. 

Me:
Unproven and irrelevant

Mike:
So is Don's observation an ad homimem and creepy simply because he's Don?  Wouldn't that be an ad hominem itself?

Me:
"because he's Don?" Do you know something about him that I don't? What is creepy - in thought, not person - is ascribing a view to someone whom you have never met or talked with, that view based upon what you think of his position plus how you believe that person responds to a family situation. And to do it of a respected professor is a slam against his scholarship; hence a personal attack. Doesn't belong here.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #232 on: October 10, 2007, 01:31:18 PM »
Don Whitbeck writes:
Sorry Charles the truth is not an attack on anyone, if you didn't know this before, thats your problem.  You can also look at his web site, his support is widely known.

I comment:
You are missing the point again. What I object to is not your disagreement with his position, but your declaration that he holds this position because a family member is gay.

Mike Bennett

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #233 on: October 10, 2007, 03:05:58 PM »
Don Whitbeck writes:
Sorry Charles the truth is not an attack on anyone, if you didn't know this before, thats your problem.  You can also look at his web site, his support is widely known.

I comment:
You are missing the point again. What I object to is not your disagreement with his position, but your declaration that he holds this position because a family member is gay.

1. Don had said "After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what."  For the life of me I can't find the word "because" in that sentence, nor a synonym.

2. Presuming that Don meant to imply causality, his assertion might have been on-target, or it might not have been on-target.  But your application of the term "ad-hominem" to his assertion was certainly not on-target.  Words have publicly known, defined meanings, and "ad-hominem" doesn't apply to what Don said or to what you thought he meant by it.  I'm surprised when a "retired journalist" uses words in ways that seem to assign some meaning other than the publicly known, defined meaning.  :o

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #234 on: October 10, 2007, 03:56:39 PM »
Don Whitbeck writes:
Sorry Charles the truth is not an attack on anyone, if you didn't know this before, thats your problem.  You can also look at his web site, his support is widely known.

I comment:
You are missing the point again. What I object to is not your disagreement with his position, but your declaration that he holds this position because a family member is gay.

1. Don had said "After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what."  For the life of me I can't find the word "because" in that sentence, nor a synonym.

2. Presuming that Don meant to imply causality, his assertion might have been on-target, or it might not have been on-target.  But your application of the term "ad-hominem" to his assertion was certainly not on-target.  Words have publicly known, defined meanings, and "ad-hominem" doesn't apply to what Don said or to what you thought he meant by it.  I'm surprised when a "retired journalist" uses words in ways that seem to assign some meaning other than the publicly known, defined meaning.  :o

Mike Bennett


"After all," would be that synonym for "because".
The charge of the ad hominem fallacy is absolutely on-target. A fallacious ad hominem argument isn't limited to an "attack" on a person.  In this case it's formally called ad hominem circumstantial. 
Don implied in his statement that Prof. Klein's point of view is not credible because he would support his gay child no matter what, so we can set aside all that Ralph might know about the Old Testament, the Hebrew language, the moral and legal codes of the scriptures, Christian theology, the Lutheran Confessions etc. (because they would they wouldn't make a difference to him) since his child is gay. 

So in the face of that ad hominem rebuttal, I offer this ad hominem defense....I know Ralph Klein and anyone else who does would find the assertion that he is that shallow laughable and ultimately insulting.  But then again, I count myself a friend, so take it for what its worth. 

All of that said, according to the Ralph's LSTC website bio, he has two grown daughters and five grandsons, so the original assertion is factually in error even before any conclusions are drawn.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 04:11:35 PM by Jim_Krauser »
Jim Krauser

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ROB_MOSKOWITZ

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #235 on: October 10, 2007, 04:15:33 PM »
So ad hominem like telling someone "I doubt that you could be considered a disinterested party"  or declaring someones supposed actions "perhaps even by methods that were suspect" or "was ill-advised or intentionally ignored procedures".    Just to take some examples from threads here.   Creepy?

Rob Moskowitz
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 04:21:08 PM by ROB_MOSKOWITZ »

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #236 on: October 10, 2007, 04:19:08 PM »
well, one can argue about arguments ad nauseum... but to say, "After all, his son is an active homosexual, and he supports his son, no matter what."    NO MATTER WHAT... you would have to prove that to me.  and that would be a tall order at that, especially with Ralph Klein.  Harvey Mozolak
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Jim_Krauser

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #237 on: October 10, 2007, 04:25:00 PM »
So ad hominem like telling someone "I doubt that you could be considered a disinterested party"  or declaring someones supposed actions "perhaps even by methods that were suspect" or "was ill-advised or intentionally ignored procedures".    Just to take some examples from threads here.

Rob Moskowitz

I'll address the first example from Wikipedia

 
Ad hominem circumstantial
Ad hominem circumstantial involves pointing out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Essentially, ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a person. The reason that this is fallacious in syllogistic logic is that pointing out that one's opponent is disposed to make a certain argument does not make the argument, from a logical point of view, any less credible; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).

On the other hand, where the person taking a position seeks to convince us by a claim of authority, or personal observation, observation of their circumstances may reduce the evidentiary weight of the claims, sometimes to zero.[4]

Examples:
"Tobacco company representatives should not be believed when they say smoking doesn't seriously affect your health, because they're just defending their own multi-million-dollar financial interests."
"He's physically addicted to nicotine. Of course he defends smoking!”
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 05:27:05 PM by Jim_Krauser »
Jim Krauser

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revjagow

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #238 on: October 10, 2007, 09:38:38 PM »
... It is just a fact for these people that the LCMS is full of back-biting, infighting, and sectarian nonsense. But compare the most recent conventions. Compare all the church bodies in America of at least, say, a million members. Probably the LCMS is among the two or three least contentious and divided right now. But since it wasn't that way in the 70's, it must not be that way now according to this lens that still sees Christian News as the voice of the right. Do we have divisions and major issues? Sure. Are they anywhere close to as fundamental, bitter, and potentuially explosive as the issues in the ELCA or its ecumenical partners? Not a chance.

Thanks Peter (and John "how many Jagows do you know?" Hannah, Dave "name dropper" Benke, and Harvey - who I don't know and will not nickname out of politeness), for some educational posting the last few days (I'm just tuning back in after dealing w/ visiting family, sick children, and other stuff).  Like you, Peter,I don't remember these days of our Synod's history (having been born in '72).  Do I think it came to the right result?  Kinda.  I appreciate your later post responding to Harvey where you acknowledged that "there was something rotten in Denmark, and nobody had a monopoly on the smell."  Everyone, it seems, has a different take on what happened and why.  The one consistent thing in people's testimony is pain.  But, did something good come from that pain?   

I would say (as one who did not have to live with that pain, directly) we have definitely moved on and made something good.  I am also a "company guy" when it comes to the LCMS and completely agree that our last convention showed that we have a "better set of problems" than most denominations these days.  To be fair, it was not that long ago that the Synod was suing itself.  But, that never amounted to anything, and I see a lot of that nastiness dying down after Huston.  I'm a little sad, but also relieved to hear how some are deciding that their pleas of "Unionism! Heterodox! Unclean!" are not being heard, so they are moving on and forming their own groups.  I'm glad that many, many more are realizing that what unites us is far greater than what divides us.  Corny?  Yes.  But, probably more true than it has been in a while.  More are realizing that most of us cherish the Word and Confessions we promised to uphold.  And most times, it is O.K. to disagree on how these are applied to our specific ministry context.  I'll admit, that may just be my statement of a preferred future.  Nonetheless, I say (with some pride in the LCMS right now) "Here I Stand." 

Uh, oh... didn't someone say something about "pride" and a "fall" somewhere?    ::)
Soli Deo Gloria!

scott3

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Re: Martin Marty's articles in the Lutheran
« Reply #239 on: October 10, 2007, 09:47:37 PM »
Uh, oh... didn't someone say something about "pride" and a "fall" somewhere?    ::)

Psst.  Probably not (somebody check the color coding to know for sure), and if he did, then it doesn't apply to us because the pride we feel is ironic and even a bit self-deprecating, something unknown 2,000 or so years ago...  So celebrate the feeling!  :-X