Author Topic: TEC unraveling officially begins  (Read 258631 times)

TravisW

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1845 on: August 07, 2008, 03:23:18 PM »
"He argued that scriptural prohibitions were addressed to heterosexuals looking for sexual variety". 

Wow, talk about a 7-year itch.   :o

deaconbob

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1846 on: August 08, 2008, 07:34:54 PM »
This deacon and the PB of the PECUSA couldn't be further apart dear poster, don't draw conclusions from the prayer I offered.It would have been preferred to have said Amen!

1Ptr5v67

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1847 on: August 09, 2008, 09:44:59 AM »
Quote
. . . . . . . . The Anglican church has had five years to deal with homosexuality among clergy and the blessing of same-sex unions. Collectively, the church has lacked courage to take the hard decision that beckons. There have been enough conferences, councils and purple-shirted flatulence on the issue of homosexuality. If a person can find where the Bible sanctions homosexuality he/she should be recruited by George W. Bush to find bin Laden. Anglicans have lost enough time on the issue of homosexuality. The two opposing views on homosexuality are incompatible. There is no middle ground. There has been enough talk. There comes a time when schism is far better than heresy.

The above excerpt highlights one Anglican's search for clarity and is the concluding paragraph of his lenthy article on the 5 year history of the Anglican Communion,  since the TEC appointment of V. Gene Robinson.    The excerpt is from the article Purple-shirted flatulence: Schism is better than heresy  (by Mark Dawes, Religion Editor) published: Saturday | August 9, 2008     http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080809/news/news3.html


fleur-de-lis

Layman Randy

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1848 on: August 09, 2008, 11:09:09 AM »
Quote
. . . . . . . . The Anglican church has had five years to deal with homosexuality among clergy and the blessing of same-sex unions. Collectively, the church has lacked courage to take the hard decision that beckons. There have been enough conferences, councils and purple-shirted flatulence on the issue of homosexuality. If a person can find where the Bible sanctions homosexuality he/she should be recruited by George W. Bush to find bin Laden. Anglicans have lost enough time on the issue of homosexuality. The two opposing views on homosexuality are incompatible. There is no middle ground. There has been enough talk. There comes a time when schism is far better than heresy.

The above excerpt highlights one Anglican's search for clarity and is the concluding paragraph of his lenthy article on the 5 year history of the Anglican Communion,  since the TEC appointment of V. Gene Robinson.    The excerpt is from the article Purple-shirted flatulence: Schism is better than heresy  (by Mark Dawes, Religion Editor) published: Saturday | August 9, 2008     http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080809/news/news3.html

Tough words in tough times.  Then I found that a Washington Post winning submission for alternate meanings for common words this year
was:  "9. flatulence , n. emergency vehicle that picks up someone who has been run over by a steamroller."  :)
So, in the Anglican church, what is the emergency vehicle and what is the steamroller?  :-\


Brian Hughes

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1849 on: August 09, 2008, 11:23:45 AM »
This deacon and the PB of the PECUSA couldn't be further apart dear poster, don't draw conclusions from the prayer I offered.It would have been preferred to have said Amen!

  I did draw conclusions and, IMHO, they were still appropriate ones to draw.  If one has the temerity to stand in a Christian pulpit, how one frames the usage of words and their meaning becomes extremely important.  From my perspective and my continuing interpretation, you sought to invoke the Holy Spirit's support of a feminine "church."  If you use "her" as a way of modifying "church," people like me will always draw that conclusion.

Since we have the Presiding Bishop of TEC also making the same conclusion and in fact claiming the second person of the Trinity is Mother Jesus, I have little reason to doubt you have not done the same with your casual usage of a female pronoun in connection with "church."

So, like I said in an earlier message, I cannot say Amen with you.  Just like I cannot say Amen to what's happening inside of TEC these days.

Brian

1Ptr5v67

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1850 on: August 10, 2008, 09:23:21 AM »
Quote
. . . . . . . . The Anglican church has had five years to deal with homosexuality among clergy and the blessing of same-sex unions. Collectively, the church has lacked courage to take the hard decision that beckons. There have been enough conferences, councils and purple-shirted flatulence on the issue of homosexuality. If a person can find where the Bible sanctions homosexuality he/she should be recruited by George W. Bush to find bin Laden. Anglicans have lost enough time on the issue of homosexuality. The two opposing views on homosexuality are incompatible. There is no middle ground. There has been enough talk. There comes a time when schism is far better than heresy.

The above excerpt highlights one Anglican's search for clarity and is the concluding paragraph of his lenthy article on the 5 year history of the Anglican Communion,  since the TEC appointment of V. Gene Robinson.    The excerpt is from the article Purple-shirted flatulence: Schism is better than heresy  (by Mark Dawes, Religion Editor) published: Saturday | August 9, 2008     http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080809/news/news3.html

Tough words in tough times.  Then I found that a Washington Post winning submission for alternate meanings for common words this year
was:  "9. flatulence , n. emergency vehicle that picks up someone who has been run over by a steamroller."  :)
So, in the Anglican church, what is the emergency vehicle and what is the steamroller?  :-\



TEC Presiding Bishop Schori perhaps started this unfortunate use of crude language when she characterized the report out of the June 2008 GAFCON conference as "emissions".     Nonetheless,  crude language again detracts from the more significant point being made.
fleur-de-lis

1Ptr5v67

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1851 on: August 10, 2008, 09:35:03 AM »
Another Anglican seeks clarity through separation . . .

Quote
. . . . . . . . . . .As one reads the lengthy Lambeth 2008 Statement, with its stating the obvious, vagueness in key terms, additional commissions, utterly unrealistic demands (moratoria), and the lengthy approval process, one can only wonder and sigh at the slowness with which we Anglicans face the inevitable. Consider the protracted pain which the delay will cause, the loss of membership it will produce and the damage to mission that will ensue. To value unity above the revealed Truth of Christianity is, of course, utterly wrong, and aiming for unity between incompatible visions is entirely futile. There is no unifying via media between incompatible key convictions, even as there is no escaping our Lord's clear teaching that "a house divided cannot stand".          . . . . . . . . . .

Above excerpt  is from a brief comment about Lambeth 2008 by the Rt. Rev. John Rodgers,  bishop with the Anglican Mission in the Americas. He is the former Dean and President of Trinity School for Ministry.

See the  entire comment at:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8831
fleur-de-lis

MSchimmel

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1852 on: August 10, 2008, 10:00:08 AM »
I had an interesting discussion with a couple of TEC priests here in SC this last week that shook my understanding of the situation as it is playing out in different parts of the country.  Up until about three weeks ago I lived in CT and have been marinating in the problems of the local synod which is decidedly about as liberal as they come.  As I understand the situation, here in SC, the TEC is quite conservative and evangelical - the priests and laity are - instead of being in an uproar - quite content with what they experience day to day and not at all understanding of ... get this ... conservatives who want to leave TEC.  They see the ones who have left - even the few locally - as being divisive, and they see it as a squabble between brothers.  One local congregation left with about 90% of the members and the building - 10% remained under the leadership of a new priest.  That 10% congregation would still probably be among the most conservative congregations in New England.  Hmmm.  This is a dynamic I just don't understand - perhaps that is the result of being a strongly hierarchical church and a diocese that is isolated from national/international problems by a conservative bishop?

deaconbob

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1853 on: August 10, 2008, 05:50:42 PM »
Now Brother Brian H, there you go misstating my original posting and in doing so you brought up referring to The Church as feminine. And while that is NOT what I said in the original post, I will refer to the Holy Church as "she" as does a host of evangalical catholic's. Holy Mother Church, the Bride of Christ etc have been used since early Church to define Her. So, you are saying too, that referring to the Church as "she" is wrong? ??? ??? ???
BTW Mark, now I know where you are serving...not too long ago I came across a congregation in your town looking for a P/T pastor and offering a parsonage and small stipend. Know of them, seems you are going down to the Carolina's like so many from Metro NY. I myself plan on the same in the future.   

John_Hannah

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1854 on: August 10, 2008, 05:56:56 PM »
Now Brother Brian H, there you go misstating my original posting and in doing so you brought up referring to The Church as feminine. And while that is NOT what I said in the original post, I will refer to the Holy Church as "she" as does a host of evangalical catholic's. Holy Mother Church, the Bride of Christ etc have been used since early Church to define Her. So, you are saying too, that referring to the Church as "she" is wrong? ??? ??? ???
BTW Mark, now I know where you are serving...not too long ago I came across a congregation in your town looking for a P/T pastor and offering a parsonage and small stipend. Know of them, seems you are going down to the Carolina's like so many from Metro NY. I myself plan on the same in the future.   

Deacon Bob: You're in good company...

The Church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ HER Lord;
SHE is his new creation
by water and the word.
From heav'n he came and sought HER
to be his holy BRIDE;
with his own blood he bought HER,
and for HER life he died.

Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Hughes

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1855 on: August 10, 2008, 06:05:03 PM »

Deacon Bob: You're in good company...

The Church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ HER Lord;
SHE is his new creation
by water and the word.


John,

Uh ... you're making my point for me.  It's clear from your quotes that it's Jesus Christ's church.  Not "her" church.  The "her" in your retort refers to the church itself, not whose church it is.  It's this sort of language and its inherent lack of clarity that leads to the sort of theological mischief we see in TEC.

Brian


Brian Hughes

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1856 on: August 10, 2008, 06:10:00 PM »
Now Brother Brian H, there you go misstating my original posting and in doing so you brought up referring to The Church as feminine.

 I did not misstate your original post.  You used the term "her" as a possessive in your sentence as in, someone/something referred to as "her" is the one who "owns" the church.  Therefore you were referring to a goddess based church whether or not that's what you intended.

 When doing theology, language matters.  Even simple language matters.  That many here don't seem to get the distinction is, IMHO, an example of why I would claim the ELCA has thrown itself off the same cliff as TEC.

See herchurch.org for more information ...

Brian

« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 06:14:51 PM by Brian Hughes »

Layman Randy

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1857 on: August 10, 2008, 06:15:50 PM »

Deacon Bob: You're in good company...

The Church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ HER Lord;
SHE is his new creation
by water and the word.


Please, either start a new thread to debate pronouns, or continue to prove that the unraveling of the TEC relates to pronouns in as much as they have proven so "ambiguous" for non-TEC clergy, deacons and some laypeople (probably not many laypeople...) as to have not derailed the topic other than to suggest the title shouldn't be "TEC" related but also add in a few other denominations!!

John,

Uh ... you're making my point for me.  It's clear from your quotes that it's Jesus Christ's church.  Not "her" church.  The "her" in your retort refers to the church itself, not whose church it is.  It's this sort of language and its inherent lack of clarity that leads to the sort of theological mischief we see in TEC.

Brian



OK, I've avoided commenting because the pronoun connection to "TEC Unraveling Officially Begins". although in a pronouncement of a purple-stoled person, led (perhaps) to a remarkable sidetrip!.  Deacon Bob's original closing sentence (long ago at #1785, August 01, 2008, 10:45:04AM) stated:
                     "May the Holy Spirit heal and bless Her Church!" (emphasis added).
In plain English, Deacon Bob referred to the Holy Spirit as feminine, not the church, and has made it clear shortly ago that use of feminine for the Church (a separate subject) is satisfactory to him.  The issue wasn't "is the church feminine?", but "is the Holy Spirit feminine?".  I agree with those who aver that Church = "she"; Church = Christ's = "his" (masculine); Holy Spirit = Not "Her".  Others disagree despite, oh, more than 1000 years of agreement, except for a number of now-defunct and some now reborn cults.  

End of rant, feel better now, going to watch lightening display (is that masculine, feminine, or neuter?).  Let me know how "it" turns out.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 06:19:24 PM by RDBosch »

Brian Hughes

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1858 on: August 10, 2008, 06:24:39 PM »


In plain English, Deacon Bob referred to the Holy Spirit as feminine, not the church,


  That is, of course, one interpretation.  Obviously I have another.  I don't believe I've ever claimed Bob was referring to the church as feminine.  Since I don't agree that the Holy Spirit is feminine, then that leaves it open to what else might be feminine in the sentence, yes?  That the vast majority of the Christian Church (you know, catholic, etc) does not refer to the Holy Spirit in the feminine, well, anyway, round and round it goes.

 For me this is not as trivial as may seem on the surface, at least not in the context of the growing apostacy of TEC.  It's just this sort of fast and sloppy use of language when doing theology that has led them to where they are now.  And, IMHO, the ELCA is headed in the same direction and there's really nothing that will slow it down. 

As per the post up stream from this one, we in the ELCA already have a solid example of where the use of this sort of language will take us.  Given what's taught in our seminaries, why would anyone believe it can't expand across a goodly portion of the entire ELCA and why would someone who claims to stand within the church catholic wish to promulgate such errors?

Brian

« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 08:06:15 PM by Brian Hughes »

Layman Randy

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Re: TEC unraveling officially begins
« Reply #1859 on: August 10, 2008, 06:27:40 PM »


In plain English, Deacon Bob referred to the Holy Spirit as feminine, not the church,


  That is, of course, one interpretation.  Obviously I have another.  I don't believe I've ever claimed Bob was referring to the church as feminine.  Since I don't agree that the Holy Spirit is feminine, then that leaves it open to what else might be feminine in the sentence, yes?  That the vast majority of the Christian Church (you know, catholic, etc) does not refer to the Holy Spirit in the feminine, well, anyway, round and round it goes.

 For me this is not as trivial as may seem on the surface, at least not in the context of the growing apostacy of TEC.  It's just this sort of fast and sloppy use of language when doing theology that has led them to where they are now.  And, IMHO, the ELCA is headed in the same direction and there's really nothing that will slow it down.

Brian


We're saying the same thing...