Author Topic: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne  (Read 22286 times)

scott3

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2007, 04:14:57 PM »
What makes me laugh the most is that I see you had to edit that post.    :P

Find a post that I don't edit (perhaps 1 in 5 or 6).  I'm normally pretty picky about how I say things, but I like to see it up in lights before I tweak it.

It's my online curse.  :-[
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 04:17:03 PM by Scott._.Yaki mow »

Gladfelteri

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2007, 05:35:20 PM »
Quote
(I've also done LBW Setting 2 with blue grass instrumentation: guitar, banjo, mandolin, violin, and bass.)

Why?  Is your organ out of service?
Gently, LutherMan, in spite of my preference for plainchant, baroque polyphony, and Bach, Bluegrass is a great style, and done right, a bluegrass eucharist could be fun - once in awhile.


ptmccain

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2007, 06:11:07 PM »
I just find it odd that when talking about the 2KR, people get up-in-arms in defense of the law/gospel distinction. 

The reason people get "up in arms" over this issue is that it has been put forward in a rather hamfisted manner by a certain CSL faculty member who has spoken of 2KR in such a manner that 2KR is spoken of as being "better" or "more helpful" than Law/Gospel. 2KR is a helpful distinction, but it is not more significant than the distinction between Law and Gospel.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 06:27:11 PM by ptmccain »

R. T. Fouts

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2007, 06:32:57 PM »
I just find it odd that when talking about the 2KR, people get up-in-arms in defense of the law/gospel distinction. 

The reason people get "up in arms" over this issue is that it has been put forward in a rather hamfisted manner by several CSL faculty members, one in particular, who has spoken of 2KR in such a manner that 2KR is spoken of as being "better" or "more helpful" than Law/Gospel. 2KR is a helpful distinction, but it is not more significant than the distinction between Law and Gospel.

I'll simply say this -- not all who have been writing on the 2KR from St. Louis agree with the single individual who has asserted it is a "better" distinction.   In reality -- he really just gave his presentation a "provocative' title because, well, that's just his style.  In reality, if one were to speak with him, he is basically asserting that the 2KR provides a more helpful paradigm for the sake of speaking about "good works" than the "uses of the law" approach which, frankly, has historically had a number of pit-falls.   In reality, when it comes to "good works" in the life of the Christian, 2KR and the "third use of the law" are getting at the same thing, from a different angle.   The "3rd use" approach emphasizes the Christian good works in terms of "fruits of faith" and "loving response" to the Gospel, whereas the 2KR approach, via "active righteousness" emphasizes all of the above but also places a particular value on the vocational reality of the Christian's good works within the context of the horizontal/coram mundo realm.   Namely, the fact that our good works are done, not for God directly, but for the sake of neighbor.   That's what I mean when I say "2KR" is more "fundamental" than law/gospel.   Law/Gospel really works within an understanding of the 2KR -- you see this played out masterfully in Apology IV.   
----------------
Dr. R.T. Fouts, M.Div, Ph.D.

ptmccain

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2007, 06:56:01 PM »
Law/Gospel really works within an understanding of the 2KR -- you see this played out masterfully in Apology IV.   

And here is where my concern comes. If all we had was Ap. IV, then it would be appropriate to try to push the "2KR" distinction as much as some are attempting to push it. I'm not saying 2KR isn't a helpful way of speaking as well, but this recent trend to make this the "big thing" is not reflective of the teachings of the Formula of Concord. Clearly, the distinction between Law/Gospel is the most important and critical distinction in the Book of Concord, which cites particularly the chief teacher of the churches of the Augsburg Confession, Martin Luther. But again, I recognize how academia has a need to find something "new" and "something insufficiently known or recognized before." It makes for journal articles, symposium speeches and graduate seminar papers, etc. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak. But I do not find it particularly helpful the way it is being "pushed," to the detriment of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

[Maybe we can deal more with this on the Book of Concord blog site when we get around to Law/Gospel discussions again].

buechler

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2007, 05:37:10 PM »
From the perspective of the majority of American Lutherans, if one chooses to go to either St. Louis or Fort Wayne, one is making a mistake. The seminaries of the ELCA offer much more.
Yeah, we specialize in just the one Gospel where some seminaries offer a whole smorgasbord of them. ;D
[/quot

Yeah, but I bet you guys from Missouri Synod don't know that the Goddess Sophia saves! ;D Oh how the ELCA seminaries have prepared its people for ecumenism! :P

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

John Dornheim

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2007, 05:51:11 PM »
From the perspective of the majority of American Lutherans, if one chooses to go to either St. Louis or Fort Wayne, one is making a mistake. The seminaries of the ELCA offer much more.
Yeah, we specialize in just the one Gospel where some seminaries offer a whole smorgasbord of them. ;D
[/quot

Yeah, but I bet you guys from Missouri Synod don't know that the Goddess Sophia saves! ;D Oh how the ELCA seminaries have prepared its people for ecumenism! :P

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

The ELCA does not assert a doctrinal position on Sophia as a Goddess. Of course, most folks already know this.

John Dornheim

ptmccain

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2007, 06:02:54 PM »
My ELCA friends lament that while the ELCA does not "assert" the kind of paganism represented at the ELCA San Francisco goddess-worshipping congregation, it sadly does nothing decisively to speak out publicly rejecting and condemning such inroads of heresy and paganism in its ranks. That is a heartbreaking reality for good and pious persons in the ELCA who watch and lament these things.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 06:07:46 PM by ptmccain »

buechler

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2007, 06:05:04 PM »
John D. wrote: "The ELCA does not assert a doctrinal position on Sophia as a Goddess."

That my friend is the problem. They should. It should be called idolatry and those who promote it defrocked and kicked out of certain congregations and seminaries. But you are right. The ELCA leadership takes no position, unless one takes the Sierra Pacific Bishop seriously who says this is no heresy.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

John Dornheim

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2007, 06:09:14 PM »
John D. wrote: "The ELCA does not assert a doctrinal position on Sophia as a Goddess."

That my friend is the problem. They should. It should be called idolatry and those who promote it defrocked and kicked out of certain congregations and seminaries. But you are right. The ELCA leadership takes no position, unless one takes the Sierra Pacific Bishop seriously who says this is no heresy.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

Perhaps it should but since you have chosen to leave, it really ought not be your concern. Perhaps the Bishop, a little closer to the situation than you, might have greater insight into the situation.

John Dornheim

buechler

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2007, 06:16:22 PM »
John D. wrote: "The ELCA does not assert a doctrinal position on Sophia as a Goddess."

That my friend is the problem. They should. It should be called idolatry and those who promote it defrocked and kicked out of certain congregations and seminaries. But you are right. The ELCA leadership takes no position, unless one takes the Sierra Pacific Bishop seriously who says this is no heresy.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

Perhaps it should but since you have chosen to leave, it really ought not be your concern. Perhaps the Bishop, a little closer to the situation than you, might have greater insight into the situation.

John Dornheim

Again friend, you miss the point. It ought to concern me as it ought to concern you. The eternal destiny of souls and obedience to Christ matters to anyone who would call themselves Christian whether they belong to the same synod or not. Second, the location of the bishop doesn't matter. The bishops around Luther were "closer" to many situations than he, yet he was right and they wrong. Why? Heresy is heresy no matter how many bishops say it isn't so. (Athanasius agreed with this as well). The bishop, as bishop, doesn't have legitmacy in him or herself. Legitimacy comes from faithfulness to the call, and that call is to be defender of the faith handed down by the saints. It would seem a great many bishops understand this in the Anglican communion as well.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

John Dornheim

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Re: difference between ST. Louis and Fort Wayne
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2007, 06:59:36 PM »
John D. wrote: "The ELCA does not assert a doctrinal position on Sophia as a Goddess."

That my friend is the problem. They should. It should be called idolatry and those who promote it defrocked and kicked out of certain congregations and seminaries. But you are right. The ELCA leadership takes no position, unless one takes the Sierra Pacific Bishop seriously who says this is no heresy.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

Well, Rob, take your shots now because whenever you do get around to leaving (if that ever happens), you relinquish that right.

John Dornheim
Perhaps it should but since you have chosen to leave, it really ought not be your concern. Perhaps the Bishop, a little closer to the situation than you, might have greater insight into the situation.

John Dornheim

Again friend, you miss the point. It ought to concern me as it ought to concern you. The eternal destiny of souls and obedience to Christ matters to anyone who would call themselves Christian whether they belong to the same synod or not. Second, the location of the bishop doesn't matter. The bishops around Luther were "closer" to many situations than he, yet he was right and they wrong. Why? Heresy is heresy no matter how many bishops say it isn't so. (Athanasius agreed with this as well). The bishop, as bishop, doesn't have legitmacy in him or herself. Legitimacy comes from faithfulness to the call, and that call is to be defender of the faith handed down by the saints. It would seem a great many bishops understand this in the Anglican communion as well.

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler