Cardinal Stritch University Closing

Started by D. Engebretson, April 12, 2023, 09:11:12 AM

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peter_speckhard

Quote from: Dave Benke on April 17, 2023, 10:06:03 AM
Quote from: Michael Slusser on April 17, 2023, 09:34:01 AM
Of course, apartheid may have been made the law of the land in the Union of South Africa in 1948, but the law expressed attitudes that existed long before and which have persisted since the laws were repealed.

Likewise, the laws in the United States that relegated non-whites to subservient and inferior status have been repealed to a great extent--even real estate covenants and sundown ordinances-- but the attitudes that underlay those laws and made them enforceable existed earlier and persist still in the assumption of a relation of superiority to inferiority between white Western European stock and culture and all others, especially the darker populations. Changing those attitudes is a continuing need and requires effort, effort that must include active cooperation from the historically dominant Western European immigrant population.

Such color attitudes were to be found even in 4th century Christianity; don't expect us to solve this without effort.

Peace,
Michael

Excellently stated, Michael.

Dave Benke
Agreed. Unlearning deeply rooted falsehoods requires deliberate effort, both introspectively concerning attitudes and directed outwardly against any perpetuation of the falsehood, both in casual speech and behaviors and ongoing official efforts to recognize, establish, and keep teaching the falsehood.   

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 17, 2023, 08:19:36 AM
On a college app, should a black person who was raised in an affluent suburb by mixed race, wealthy professional parents get a leg up because his skin color is the same as many people who struggled with lack of opportunity in the inner city?


I wondered about that when some white, middle-class friends adopted children from Korea. Their son was picked on so much at middle school because he looked different than the majority, they had to change schools for him. When a differences is obvious, the economic similarities may not make much difference.


Even more subtle, a Canadian friend who came from an English-speaking family, married a French-Canadian whose primary language was French. Their children went to a French-speaking school. They were fluent in both languages. But because their mother was English-speaking, they were bullied so much that they had to change schools. Prejudices against different ethnics and cultures exists even among people of the same skin color. However, it's hard to hide skin color differences.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Donald_Kirchner

#122
Looks like Morgan Freeman is quite in agreement with you, Peter.

"'You're going to relegate my history to a month?' Freeman said on CBS' '60 Minutes' at the time. 'I don't want a Black History Month. Black history is American history.'"

"Freeman added there was no 'White history month' and the only way to get rid of racism was to 'stop talking about it.'" [emphasis added]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/morgan-freeman-tears-apart-black-history-month-insult-going-relegate-history-month
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on April 17, 2023, 12:47:52 PM
Looks like Morgan Freeman is quite in agreement with you, Peter.

"'You're going to relegate my history to a month?' Freeman said on CBS' '60 Minutes' at the time. 'I don't want a Black History Month. Black history is American history.'"

"Freeman added there was no 'White history month' and the only way to get rid of racism was to 'stop talking about it.'" [emphasis added]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/morgan-freeman-tears-apart-black-history-month-insult-going-relegate-history-month

I think he makes an important point. "My fellow Americans..." is not a racialized opening to a presidential campaign speech. Some symbol of national pride, say, the moon landing, should inspire all Americans. Morgan Freeman or some other black person should not have to take comfort in the idea the black people played some particular role in the space program. White people can and should take pride that their fellow American Jesse Owens humiliated race-theory-believer and fellow white person Adolf Hitler at the Olympics. Neil Armstrong is/was a "fellow American" to Morgan Freeman as much as to me or you, and Jesse Owens was a "fellow American" to me or you as much as to Morgan Freeman. Teaching separate histories fractures the culture and creates the alienation it tries to fight. Americans should be ashamed that Americans lynched Americans, and Americans should be proud that Americans fought back against it. An immigrant from Poland (like my neighbor) and an immigrant from Kenya should not be immigrating to two separate Americas with separate histories. That isn't what attracted them here, nor should it be imposed on them.

Charles Austin

But until recent times, Peter, American history was told without the proper balance and information concerning slavery, immigrants, and other groups that were marginalized by our society.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 17, 2023, 02:17:44 PM
But until recent times, Peter, American history was told without the proper balance and information concerning slavery, immigrants, and other groups that were marginalized by our society.
Well, I'm not sure that is true in my experience. Granted, I was educated in the 70's and 80's, but I don't recall the horrors of slavery, the Trail of Tears, or the struggles of immigrants getting short shrift. Sure, there were aspects of the Civil Rights Movement that were still controversial, especially in our region, and a lot of lingering distrust and bitterness that I was unaware of at the time. But at any rate, it is all American history, not white history and black history.

Another interesting and positive illustration from our school. Every other year we do a Living History Museum, and the students research some famous person and then give a first-person presentation as that person, costume and all, to anyone who comes by that booth. Most of the students choose someone who is demographically like them in some way, but that is becoming less and less relevant. Black students will choose a white person or vice versa. Think of liberating that is to the mind of a child to be free of such associations and have the whole panoply of heroes available to identify with.

One thing I'm noticing in this discussion is that few people are willing to take on the thrust of my argument. It is all caveats and "what about this or that" without any commentary on the central point, which is that training people to think in terms of racial identity boxes is counter-productive to its own stated purpose.

Donald_Kirchner

#126
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 17, 2023, 02:17:44 PM
But until recent times, Peter, American history was told without the proper balance and information concerning slavery, immigrants, and other groups that were marginalized by our society.

As a response to Peter and Morgan Freeman's comments, what is your point, Charles? That there is lingering racism, as you showed us this morning, that Peter and Morgan Freeman want to abolish?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Chris Schelp

Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 17, 2023, 02:35:00 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 17, 2023, 02:17:44 PM
But until recent times, Peter, American history was told without the proper balance and information concerning slavery, immigrants, and other groups that were marginalized by our society.
Well, I'm not sure that is true in my experience. Granted, I was educated in the 70's and 80's, but I don't recall the horrors of slavery, the Trail of Tears, or the struggles of immigrants getting short shrift. Sure, there were aspects of the Civil Rights Movement that were still controversial, especially in our region, and a lot of lingering distrust and bitterness that I was unaware of at the time. But at any rate, it is all American history, not white history and black history.

Another interesting and positive illustration from our school. Every other year we do a Living History Museum, and the students research some famous person and then give a first-person presentation as that person, costume and all, to anyone who comes by that booth. Most of the students choose someone who is demographically like them in some way, but that is becoming less and less relevant. Black students will choose a white person or vice versa. Think of liberating that is to the mind of a child to be free of such associations and have the whole panoply of heroes available to identify with.

One thing I'm noticing in this discussion is that few people are willing to take on the thrust of my argument. It is all caveats and "what about this or that" without any commentary on the central point, which is that training people to think in terms of racial identity boxes is counter-productive to its own stated purpose.

Well, I simply agree fully on the central point, but I'll see if I can offer some additional commentary that is, hopefully, not too inflammatory: training people to think in those boxes simply makes it necessary to also train them in the idea that one group must be the "victor," while another group must be the "victim." Thus, of course, the incessant language of needing to somehow rectify "marginalization." But the problem is that as soon as you make someone out to be the "victim," and attempt to rectify that, you must make them into the "victor"...which, of course, merely makes someone else the "victim." I say this next part not as a complaint, but merely as a simple fact: using these ways of thinking, I, as a married (to a woman), white, conservative, Christian (who holds to orthodox Christian views, among which are the male-only pastorate and the impossibility of so-called "same-sex marriage") male, am clearly, in our current society, a member of the most "marginalized" group. Again, this is not a complaint, merely stating a plain, obvious fact (despite the certain protests to come from some corners regarding that statement). I do not wish for anyone to think of me as "marginalized," nor do I actually consider myself to be so...and that, to me, is where we should try to be: serving others as people, not as members of groups, "marginalized" or otherwise.

peter_speckhard

It is simply a logical necessity that any shape have margins or edges/extremes. If black people make up, say, 10-15% of the population in which the majority are white, they are by definition marginalized to the degree skin color is relevant. Unless, that is, they are "centered" which just means treating something atypical as though it were typical, which eliminates the distinction it relies on.

Dave Likeness

During my youth in the 1950's I never considered someone's
skin color when playing sports in grade school or during the
Summer baseball in high school.  Everyone had a common
goal for our team: to win the game.  Davenport, Iowa was my
hometown and it was a city with a population of 100,000.

Bottom Line: Sports teaches teamwork and it does not matter
what decade your youth occurred.

Michael Slusser

Quote from: Dave Likeness on April 17, 2023, 04:04:08 PM
During my youth in the 1950's I never considered someone's
skin color when playing sports in grade school or during the
Summer baseball in high school.  Everyone had a common
goal for our team: to win the game.  Davenport, Iowa was my
hometown and it was a city with a population of 100,000.

Bottom Line: Sports teaches teamwork and it does not matter
what decade your youth occurred.
I'm curious: in 1950s Davenport Iowa about what percentage of the boys at your school or summer basball team were what would be called white? My guess is 90+%.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Michael Slusser on April 17, 2023, 04:29:56 PM
Quote from: Dave Likeness on April 17, 2023, 04:04:08 PM
During my youth in the 1950's I never considered someone's
skin color when playing sports in grade school or during the
Summer baseball in high school.  Everyone had a common
goal for our team: to win the game.  Davenport, Iowa was my
hometown and it was a city with a population of 100,000.

Bottom Line: Sports teaches teamwork and it does not matter
what decade your youth occurred.
I'm curious: in 1950s Davenport Iowa about what percentage of the boys at your school or summer basball team were what would be called white? My guess is 90+%.

Peace,
Michael

My hometown in Wausau, WI, where I graduated from high school (1979), was easily in that 90+% range.  I suspect that this was somewhat typical in northern communities in those years - and probably in many areas of the mid-west, at least the more rural, less urban areas.  In my current community (north-east of where I grew up) there are more people of color, but still a very small minority. 

I had to leave for college in the urban community of St. Paul, MN to be exposed to a more diverse population. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Michael Slusser

Quote from: D. Engebretson on April 17, 2023, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: Michael Slusser on April 17, 2023, 04:29:56 PM
Quote from: Dave Likeness on April 17, 2023, 04:04:08 PM
During my youth in the 1950's I never considered someone's
skin color when playing sports in grade school or during the
Summer baseball in high school.  Everyone had a common
goal for our team: to win the game.  Davenport, Iowa was my
hometown and it was a city with a population of 100,000.

Bottom Line: Sports teaches teamwork and it does not matter
what decade your youth occurred.
I'm curious: in 1950s Davenport Iowa about what percentage of the boys at your school or summer basball team were what would be called white? My guess is 90+%.

Peace,
Michael

My hometown in Wausau, WI, where I graduated from high school (1979), was easily in that 90+% range.  I suspect that this was somewhat typical in northern communities in those years - and probably in many areas of the mid-west, at least the more rural, less urban areas.  In my current community (north-east of where I grew up) there are more people of color, but still a very small minority. 

I had to leave for college in the urban community of St. Paul, MN to be exposed to a more diverse population.
Of course today in Wausau you would grow up with a large Hmong population, wouldn't you? The times are a'changing!

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Chuck

#133
Quote from: Michael Slusser on April 17, 2023, 04:29:56 PM

I'm curious: in 1950s Davenport Iowa about what percentage of the boys at your school or summer basball team were what would be called white? My guess is 90+%.

Peace,
Michael


Far less, actually. According to the Census Bureau, the percentage of non-whites was 1.42%
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

John_Hannah

#134
Our nation would surely be much better off if everyone had gone to a school like Peter's in Indiana. Unfortunately, most did not. Brown and black people still face disadvantages at the hands of majority citizens acting unconsciously or consciously. In my judgement this discrimination is declining over the years since the Emancipation, Jim Crow, Brown, Selma, and Obama. But it still exists. It is best not to ignore it.

If only the entire nation were like Peter's school!

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

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