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Megan Rohrer sues ELCA

Started by Jim Butler, March 03, 2023, 12:04:05 PM

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Jim Butler

"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

Dan Fienen

Identity politics, intersectionality, and comparative victimhood have become the currency of debate and the equity spoils system. Competency and good faith action have been devalued by comparison. I have no way of knowing if Rohrer was treated fairly or if Rohrer treated farly the Latino pastor that prompted Rohrer's ouster. Is it too much to ask that this be decided on the merits rather than comparative victimhood? Perhaps.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

D. Engebretson

This is complicated. A lot of accusations. A lot of assumptions.

BTW, Rohrer claims that "on his first day as bishop, during a video call, Rohrer said he was misgendered and ridiculed for featuring drag queens at his ordination."  How does a church body handle drag queens as part of an ordination? What are they supposed to contribute? By definition they are essentially entertainers or performers. The costumes are usually quite outlandish, and sometimes rather suggestive.  Again, how does this contribute to what is supposed to be a serious and solemn affair?  Does the ELCA technically see drag queens as acceptable participants in an ordination?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

1 Corinthians 6:1--8. If you get treated poorly by people in the church, double down on the doctrine and practice of Christ and the Apostles. As you are wounded, meditate on the wounds of Jesus and sing "Jesus grant that balm and healing in Your holy wounds I find." Pray for your abusers and follow Matthew 18. The Lord will sort it out.

RDPreus

That a woman pretending to be a man would sue someone for dissing her delusion is to be expected.  The crazier the sexual deviancy becomes, the more adamant the deviants are that we pretend they're not what they are.  While this situation is bizarre and an embarrassment to the ELCA, it's the kind of thing we've come to expect.  I am curious, though, what the ELCA participants on this forum think about suing.  When, if ever, is there a legitimate cause for a minister of the Word to sue the church he/she/whatever has served?  Does 1 Corinthians 6 have any application here?

Dan Fienen

Quote from: D. Engebretson on March 03, 2023, 01:12:52 PM
This is complicated. A lot of accusations. A lot of assumptions.

BTW, Rohrer claims that "on his first day as bishop, during a video call, Rohrer said he was misgendered and ridiculed for featuring drag queens at his ordination."  How does a church body handle drag queens as part of an ordination? What are they supposed to contribute? By definition they are essentially entertainers or performers. The costumes are usually quite outlandish, and sometimes rather suggestive.  Again, how does this contribute to what is supposed to be a serious and solemn affair?  Does the ELCA technically see drag queens as acceptable participants in an ordination?
Transvestism is far outside my area of expertise. My understanding is that except when it is a part of a program of gender transitioning, transvestism and transgenderism are separate and distinct. This would be especially true of Drag Queens which, at least until quite recently, was an entertainment phenomenon. Why it has suddenly become such a cultural phenomenon and imperative to expose ever younger children to Drag Queens as admirable or to include Drag Queens ceremonially seems odd, especially when it is transgenderism that is being celebrated. Am I wrong to think that Drag Queens are generally not transgender? It would seem to me that Drag Queens would be the antithesis of transgenderism because the point of Drag Queens is that you have men dressing up as realistic if exaggerated women and the value is seeing how well men can look like women. (And in a few cases you have the opposite switch.) With transgenderism, the emphasis is not on men pretending to be women, but men becoming women and no longer men (and vice versa).


Perhaps the point is simply the shock value and the more shock (Drag Queen toddler story hour) the better. A poke in the eye to the boring cisgendered bourgeoisie.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

Quote from: D. Engebretson on March 03, 2023, 01:12:52 PM
This is complicated. A lot of accusations. A lot of assumptions.

BTW, Rohrer claims that "on his first day as bishop, during a video call, Rohrer said he was misgendered and ridiculed for featuring drag queens at his ordination."  How does a church body handle drag queens as part of an ordination? What are they supposed to contribute? By definition they are essentially entertainers or performers. The costumes are usually quite outlandish, and sometimes rather suggestive.  Again, how does this contribute to what is supposed to be a serious and solemn affair?  Does the ELCA technically see drag queens as acceptable participants in an ordination?
I very much doubt anyone "ridiculed" the presence of drag queens at the ordination the bishop's first day on a video call. Probably someone commented on them while trying to be funny and friendly and wasn't up to speed on the latest linguistic demands. The objection is that any comment (apart from solemn appreciation) was made because the whole point was to normalize it, that is, dare anyone to notice or comment.

This is all the stuff of Monty Python. What one would have to do if the goal was to make a mockery of the service if drag queens don't do the trick?

Chris Schelp

Quote from: peter_speckhard on March 03, 2023, 01:45:03 PM
Quote from: D. Engebretson on March 03, 2023, 01:12:52 PM
This is complicated. A lot of accusations. A lot of assumptions.

BTW, Rohrer claims that "on his first day as bishop, during a video call, Rohrer said he was misgendered and ridiculed for featuring drag queens at his ordination."  How does a church body handle drag queens as part of an ordination? What are they supposed to contribute? By definition they are essentially entertainers or performers. The costumes are usually quite outlandish, and sometimes rather suggestive.  Again, how does this contribute to what is supposed to be a serious and solemn affair?  Does the ELCA technically see drag queens as acceptable participants in an ordination?
I very much doubt anyone "ridiculed" the presence of drag queens at the ordination the bishop's first day on a video call. Probably someone commented on them while trying to be funny and friendly and wasn't up to speed on the latest linguistic demands. The objection is that any comment (apart from solemn appreciation) was made because the whole point was to normalize it, that is, dare anyone to notice or comment.

This is all the stuff of Monty Python. What one would have to do if the goal was to make a mockery of the service if drag queens don't do the trick?

I'd almost be so bold as to say that a little more ridicule is what this, and many other, situations needed from the outset.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

Quote from: RDPreus on March 03, 2023, 01:26:34 PM
That a woman pretending to be a man would sue someone for dissing her delusion is to be expected.  The crazier the sexual deviancy becomes, the more adamant the deviants are that we pretend they're not what they are.  While this situation is bizarre and an embarrassment to the ELCA, it's the kind of thing we've come to expect.  I am curious, though, what the ELCA participants on this forum think about suing.  When, if ever, is there a legitimate cause for a minister of the Word to sue the church he/she/whatever has served?  Does 1 Corinthians 6 have any application here?

I would say Christian doctrine always applies to church life. You don't sue the church. You bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

I've not read the case/article and I won't.  Deuteronomy 22:5 answers the matter well enough for me.

Matt Hummel

Golly I wish I knew how to post the Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme here.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 03, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
I've not read the case/article and I won't.  Deuteronomy 22:5 answers the matter well enough for me.


Who decides what type of clothing belongs to what sex? More than once, I've heard the alb called "a dress." We can appear like men in women's clothing. My brother-in-law bought and wore a kilt when they visited Scotland.


I'll have to do some research as to whether or not the biblical terms for clothing are gender specific.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Rob Morris

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on March 03, 2023, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 03, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
I've not read the case/article and I won't.  Deuteronomy 22:5 answers the matter well enough for me.


Who decides what type of clothing belongs to what sex? More than once, I've heard the alb called "a dress." We can appear like men in women's clothing. My brother-in-law bought and wore a kilt when they visited Scotland.

I'll have to do some research as to whether or not the biblical terms for clothing are gender specific.

I have an idea: try telling a drag queen that their clothing is gender neutral... Let us know the response.

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on March 03, 2023, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 03, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
I've not read the case/article and I won't.  Deuteronomy 22:5 answers the matter well enough for me.


Who decides what type of clothing belongs to what sex? More than once, I've heard the alb called "a dress." We can appear like men in women's clothing. My brother-in-law bought and wore a kilt when they visited Scotland.


I'll have to do some research as to whether or not the biblical terms for clothing are gender specific.

The more specific question I had regarding how the participants dressed during the said ordination concerned the "drag queens" with their supposedly outlandish costumes at an otherwise solemn occasion.  Do you see this as appropriate for such an occasion, and if so, why?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

Drag queens are not cross-dressers. Probably there were many women sitting in the pews at the ordination service, and I'll bet none of them was dressed like a drag queen. Drag queens don't dress like women, they dress like erotically perverse clowns.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Rob Morris on March 03, 2023, 04:21:19 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on March 03, 2023, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 03, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
I've not read the case/article and I won't.  Deuteronomy 22:5 answers the matter well enough for me.


Who decides what type of clothing belongs to what sex? More than once, I've heard the alb called "a dress." We can appear like men in women's clothing. My brother-in-law bought and wore a kilt when they visited Scotland.

I'll have to do some research as to whether or not the biblical terms for clothing are gender specific.

I have an idea: try telling a drag queen that their clothing is gender neutral... Let us know the response.


My comment was about about how we interpret Deuteronomy 22:5 if all the terms for clothing were gender neutral. English has terms like "dress," "skirt," "blouse," usually used for women's clothing. "Kilt" is sort of like a skirt but worn by men.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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