Author Topic: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon  (Read 1727 times)

Richard Johnson

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Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« on: August 11, 2022, 02:52:35 PM »
I had to miss the morning session, but I will catch up on it later. This afternoon, we hear a credential report. 829 voting members present. The Q&A with the candidates was this morning, so I'll have to get back to you on that. Now the fourth ballot is taken. A video is shown while we wait for results. On this ballot: 802 votes, needed 482. Siddiqui 443, Aranda 228, Beasley 131. So it will go to a fifth ballot between Siddiqui and Aranda, later in this session.

Now consideration of constitutional amendments. These are recommended by the Church Council. First is a motion to ratify en bloc a series of amendments to the constitution that were approved at the 2019 assembly. Motion approved 757-27.

Now to the amendments proposed. Most of these are technical in nature and will be approved en bloc. About five of these have been removed from en bloc motion for separate consideration. The en bloc motion is approved 784-18.

Now to those removed from en bloc. First is a proposed amendment to 5.01 which adds a little wiggle room to the representational requirements so, for instance, it says that "as nearly as possible" at least 45% of lay members of assemblies and councils should be men and 45% women. A person makes a motion to amend by adding language that would require representation of LGBTQ+ community. This is ruled out of order because it was not properly submitted by the deadline. So it moves to a vote, and the motion to amend is adopted 767-32.  (I think must still be ratified at next CWA?)

Next is bylaw 7.31.03g. The amendment would remove the ability of a bishop to recommend a call for a first call pastor to an entity other than a local congregation. An amendment is proposed which would keep that possibility there (so, for instance, a first call pastor might be recommended to a campus ministry or other non-parochial service). (Actually the possibility is still there, but only with approval for a specific case by the Conference of Bishops.) The previous question is moved and seconded, and the vote to close debate is approved. The vote is now on the amendment as proposed, and it is not approved (316-490).

8.22.01. This one would remove some language which defines relationship of ELCA to its church colleges. The rationale for the amendment is that it is superfluous due to other language in the previous paragraph that has defined that relationship and mission. The result would appear to be a weakening of the specific "Lutheran identity" of the colleges, replacing it with a more generic "educate students for vocation in the Church and the world." Several speakers, mostly against the change. Previous question called and approved. The amendment itself (which requires 2/3) is defeated, 412-391.

15.01.03 moves the ELCA's commitment that its staff should "include a balance of genders, persons of color and persons whose primary language is other than English, laypersons, and rostered ministers." The person who had raised the issue about LGBTQ+ people earlier opposes this because again, she says, it doesn't provide for LGBTQ+ representation. Motion fails, 484-314.

S6.04 This is the same issue approved earlier with adding "as nearly as possible" to representational principles, but with respect to synod constitutions. The same person again urges a no vote because of the lack of representation of LGBTQ+. This time a pastor from ND who is Black urges approval. "This is not an all or nothing situation. If we want to move our church forward, we need to take a step forward. By asking for inclusion and diversity in one way, that's a step forward...If we vote no, we are going backwards instead of going forward." Secretary clarifies that this amendment only adds these words "as nearly as possible" to give flexibility. Bp. Eaton reiterates this. A lay member supports the change, identifying as non-binary but "I'm here as a lay female because there's no category for me." But in favor of change because it gives more flexibility as a first step. Previous question moved and carried. The proposed amendment approved 760-48.

Now for some amendments proposed by members by the deadline and referred to Reference and Counsel. Interrupted by a motion to suspend the rules to allow each of the Veep candidates to speak for five minutes prior to the fifth ballot. Motion is not approved, 398-386 (required 2/3).

Reference and Counsel received three proposed amendments, all to Synod constitutions. All three proposals simply struck the "required" nature of three provisions. The Ref & Couns recommendation is to vote against all three. The first S21.01 one has to do with election of members of synod assemblies: Voting members shall begin serving with the opening of a regular Synod Assembly and shall continue serving until voting members are seated at the next regular Synod Assembly." The proposer of the amendment, Bp. Riegel, argues that synods should be able to adapt and innovate on this matter, rather than it being a required provision. Vote is 616 to 178, it is approved.

Next one was S11.04 "The Mutual Ministry Committee shall be appointed by the Executive Committee of the Synod Council to provide support and counsel to the bishop." Again proposed amendment is to eliminate required nature; R&C moves to refer to Conference of Bishops, Church Council, and Office of Secretary. Bp. Riegel says he could support that, since it starts the discussion. But he notes that he had done a survey of colleague bishops and learned that many synods don't even have a mutual committee, even though it is "required." Motion to refer is approved, 747-30.

Finally, S15.31 "This synod shall arrange to have an annual audit of its financial records conducted by a certified public accountant firm recommended by the synod Audit Committee and approved by the Synod Council. The audited annual financial report shall be submitted by this synod to the churchwide Office of the Treasurer and to the congregations of this synod. The financial reports shall be in the format approved from time to time by the churchwide Office of the Treasurer." Proposed amendment is to remove the "required" nature. R&C moves to refer to Office of the Treasurer. There is no discussion; motion to refer is approved 742-29.

After a stretch break, comes Motion K, a motion proposed by an assembly member, which would "authorize a possible revision of the social statement Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust which reconsiders the church's current concept of the four positions of bound conscience." In other words, it wants to consider removing the "four positions" on homosexuality. R&C recommends approval. The speaking is all in favor. We have to do this to truly welcome LGBTQ+ people. This is only way we can truly be open to young people. Etc. etc. Pr. Beth Schlegel: I'm concerned about the message that "bound conscience" refers only to one of the "four positions." It refers to all. I hope we can find a way to welcoming to all people while also recognizing different Scriptural viewpoints. Somebody else suggest that this may actually make the church less welcoming, if people are told they MUST believe a particular way. Bishop Strickland: This does not say we're getting rid of bound conscience, but that we're reconsidering our current understanding. I'm tired of having my personhood questioned. Have your diverse beliefs, but at least mean all are welcome not to be condemned. Previous question is moved and adopted. As the vote is about to be taken, someone suggests to Bp. Eaton that prayer would be appropriate. She calls on one of the "prayer team" who reads a prayer from an iphone which doesn't address in any way the issue before the assembly, obviously written ahead of time, with a bunch of stuff about Mother Earth and Father Sky and dancing. Ugh. Can no one pray spontaneously? On Motion K, the vote is 708 to 93. And so the ELCA moves toward making it clear that people with an orthodox position on sexuality are no longer welcome in this church.

Orders of the day now called, fifth ballot for Veep. Credentials report: 829 voting members. After song and prayer, the ballot is cast. Results: 814 ballots, majority needed to elect:  Siddiqui 550, Aranda 264. Mr. Siddiqui is the new vice president. He addresses the assembly: "Holy crap, y'all." (laughter) "I just got re-elected vice president of the Southeastern Synod" Bp Eaton (to bishop of that synod): "Sorry, Kevin." "I thank you for your faith in me. I will try not to let you down."

Finally, we move to Ecumenical and Interreligious Relations Recognition." Bp Eaton introduces several ecumenical and interrelgious guests. Standing ovation. Oddly, she doesn't name any of them; they stand behind her, and now they walk off the stage. She notes we now have a new full communion partner, the Anglican Church Canada, as a result of Churches Beyond Borders, an agreement between ELCA, The Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church in Canada, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. We hear video greetings from heads of those other churches. Bp. Eaton reports on developing relationships with the Roman Catholic Church. She introduces Bp. Dennis Manning to bring greetings. Bp. Eaton notes the 25 years of full communion with Reformed churches, and introduces the heads of the Reformed Church in America, the Presbyterian Church in the USA, and the UCC, each of whom bring greetings. Then she introduces the interim head of NCC, Bp. Vashti McKenzie (AME church). Greeting from Rabbi Esther Lederman, Union for Reformed Judaism. Then greetings from Imam Saffet Catovi from the Islamic Society of North America's Office for Interfaith Relations.

Announcements and adjournment; next plenary begins at 10:30 tomorrow.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 05:13:54 PM by Richard Johnson »
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

DCharlton

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2022, 05:24:41 PM »
After a stretch break, comes Motion K, a motion proposed by an assembly member, which would "authorize a possible revision of the social statement Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust which reconsiders the church's current concept of the four positions of bound conscience." In other words, it wants to consider removing the "four positions" on homosexuality. R&C recommends approval. The speaking is all in favor. We have to do this to truly welcome LGBTQ+ people. This is only way we can truly be open to young people. Etc. etc. Pr. Beth Schlegel: I'm concerned about the message that "bound conscience" refers only to one of the "four positions." It refers to all. I hope we can find a way to welcoming to all people while also recognizing different Scriptural viewpoints. Somebody else suggest that this may actually make the church less welcoming, if people are told they MUST believe a particular way. Bishop Strickland: This does not say we're getting rid of bound conscience, but that we're reconsidering our current understanding. I'm tired of having my personhood questioned. Have your diverse beliefs, but at least mean all are welcome not to be condemned. Previous question is moved and adopted. As the vote is about to be taken, someone suggests to Bp. Eaton that prayer would be appropriate. She calls on one of the "prayer team" who reads a prayer from an iphone which doesn't address in any way the issue before the assembly, obviously written ahead of time, with a bunch of stuff about Mother Earth and Father Sky and dancing. Ugh. Can no one pray spontaneously? On Motion K, the vote is 708 to 93. And so the ELCA moves toward making it clear that people with an orthodox position on sexuality are no longer welcome in this church.

Well, on the bright side, it means that the ELCA can stop pretending that 2009 was anything other than what it was.  No more need for Bishop Strickland's "you can have your bound conscience as long as you shut up."
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 05:26:36 PM by DCharlton »
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Dave Likeness

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2022, 06:12:19 PM »
Pastor Johnson, could you refresh those of us in the LCMS on the 4 positions
of a "bound conscience".  It seems like this resolution could have a powerful
effect on the further exodus from the ELCA.  Thanks for your help.

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2022, 06:30:52 PM »
Pastor Johnson, could you refresh those of us in the LCMS on the 4 positions
of a "bound conscience".  It seems like this resolution could have a powerful
effect on the further exodus from the ELCA.  Thanks for your help.

From Human Sexuality, Gift and Trust, page 20:

• On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that same-gender sexual behavior is sinful, contrary to biblical teaching and their understanding of natural law. They believe
same-gender sexual behavior carries the grave danger of unre- pentant sin. They therefore conclude that the neighbor and the community are best served by calling people in same-gender sexual relationships to repentance for that behavior and to a celibate lifestyle. Such decisions are intended to be accompa- nied by pastoral response and community support.
• On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that homosexuality and even lifelong, monogamous, homo- sexual relationships reflect a broken world in which some relationships do not pattern themselves after the creation God intended. While they acknowledge that such relationships may be lived out with mutuality and care, they do not believe that the neighbor or community are best served by publicly recognizing such relationships as traditional marriage.
• On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and lifelong loving and committed relation- ships that we experience today. They believe that the neighbor and community are best served when same-gender relationships are honored and held to high standards and public account- ability, but they do not equate these relationships with marriage. They do, however, afrm the need for community support and the role of pastoral care and may wish to surround lifelong, monogamous relationships or covenant unions with prayer.
• Ont he basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and committed relationships that we experience today. They believe that the neighbor and community are best served when same-gender relationships are lived out with lifelong and monogamous commitments that are held to the same rigorous standards, sexual ethics, and status as hetero- sexual marriage. They surround such couples and their lifelong commitments with prayer to live in ways that glorify God, strength for the challenges that will be faced, and serve others. They believe same-gender couples should avail themselves of social and legal support for themselves, their children, and other dependents and seek the highest legal accountability available for their relationships.
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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2022, 06:45:48 PM »
Thanks for your response, Peter Kruse

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2022, 09:53:57 PM »
After a stretch break, comes Motion K, a motion proposed by an assembly member, which would "authorize a possible revision of the social statement Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust which reconsiders the church's current concept of the four positions of bound conscience." In other words, it wants to consider removing the "four positions" on homosexuality. R&C recommends approval....

 On Motion K, the vote is 708 to 93. And so the ELCA moves toward making it clear that people with an orthodox position on sexuality are no longer welcome in this church.

Well, on the bright side, it means that the ELCA can stop pretending that 2009 was anything other than what it was.  No more need for Bishop Strickland's "you can have your bound conscience as long as you shut up."

Eight days short of the 13th anniversary of A.D. 2009 vote now comes to pass what Pastor Tibbetts used as his tagline:  "Big tents are for circuses". 

This is the Orthodox season of the Paraklesis, the supplicatory canon chanted nightly as we prepare for the Dormition of the Theotokos.

At the risk of sounding like the condemned Pharisee of Luke's Gospel, upon reading this all I can "hear" is the hiermos of the First Ode of the Canon:

    Crossing the waters as on dry land
   In that way escaping
   From the evils of Egypt’s land
   The people of Israel were crying:
   “To God our Redeemer let us sing!”


I am humbly thankful that, a decade ago, God provided "a way of escape" from "the wrath that is to come."

« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 10:00:20 AM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2022, 12:03:34 AM »

From Human Sexuality, Gift and Trust, page 20:


It begins: "This church recognizes that, with conviction and integrity:"


We recognized that there were these different positions held by members of our congregations with conviction.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2022, 12:34:21 AM »
We recognized that there were these different positions held by members of our congregations with conviction.

"Recognized" is past tense.

Is such recognition still in place?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 12:36:49 AM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2022, 04:46:46 AM »
And, Deacon Shelley, I would wager that there are among your wrath-fleeing clergy and laity various views on subjects as theologically hot as the two natures of Christ and whence they came, marriage and sexuality that are not fully resolved or unified by ancient councils, liturgy or hymnody.
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2022, 05:50:31 AM »
Quote
"She calls on one of the "prayer team" who reads a prayer from an iphone which doesn't address in any way the issue before the assembly, obviously written ahead of time, with a bunch of stuff about Mother Earth and Father Sky and dancing. Ugh. Can no one pray spontaneously?"

The earthodox skyrch at prayer? What would be in the spontaneous prayer?
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Marshall Hahn

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2022, 07:25:04 AM »
And here I thought the ELCA was through talking about sex.

Marshall Hahn

Richard Johnson

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2022, 08:11:07 AM »
Quote
"She calls on one of the "prayer team" who reads a prayer from an iphone which doesn't address in any way the issue before the assembly, obviously written ahead of time, with a bunch of stuff about Mother Earth and Father Sky and dancing. Ugh. Can no one pray spontaneously?"

The earthodox skyrch at prayer? What would be in the spontaneous prayer?

Well, there is that.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2022, 08:11:38 AM »
And here I thought the ELCA was through talking about sex.

Marshall Hahn

Oh, that's so cute.  8)
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Rob Morris

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2022, 09:52:07 AM »
And, Deacon Shelley, I would wager that there are among your wrath-fleeing clergy and laity various views on subjects as theologically hot as the two natures of Christ and whence they came, marriage and sexuality that are not fully resolved or unified by ancient councils, liturgy or hymnody.

This is one of your favorite observations/tactics… I am curious if you would be willing to explain why.

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Re: Plenary 6 Thursday afternoon
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2022, 12:11:07 PM »
And, Deacon Shelley, I would wager that there are among your wrath-fleeing clergy and laity various views on subjects as theologically hot as the two natures of Christ and whence they came, marriage and sexuality that are not fully resolved or unified by ancient councils, liturgy or hymnody.

This is most certainly true.
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