Author Topic: Christian Nationalism? No  (Read 18107 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #465 on: November 20, 2022, 11:13:51 AM »
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others. Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.
We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #466 on: November 20, 2022, 01:45:32 PM »
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others. Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.
We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.

I do not read his response to you as "making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others."  I do see him criticizing the coverage from the AP as poorly written and speculative.  But his response did give you the chance to post your usual complaints.

How about we wait for the police and FBI to do their jobs before we start laying blame?

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #467 on: November 20, 2022, 02:00:56 PM »
When disgust turns to action; Why language about sexual minorities matters
   COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — A shooter opened fire in a gay nightclub late Saturday, killing five people and wounding 18 in the latest mass shooting to befall the country in a year in which anti-gay rhetoric has been amped up among extremists.
   Lt. Pamela Castro of the Colorado Springs Police Department said police received a report of a shooting at Club Q at 11:57 p.m.
   Castro said there was one suspect who was injured and was being treated. She said it was not immediately clear whether he had been shot by officers. She said the FBI was on the scene and assisting in the case.

   The motive behind Saturday’s shooting was not immediately known but it brought back memories of the 2016 massacre at the the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida, that killed 49 people. And it occurred in a state that has experienced several notorious mass killings, including at Columbine High School, a movie theater in a Denver suburb in 2012 and a Boulder supermarket last year.
   In June, 31 members of the neo-Nazi group Patriot Front were arrested in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, and charged with conspiracy to riot at a Pride event. Experts warned that extremist groups could see anti-gay rhetoric as a call to action.
   The previous month, a fundamentalist Idaho pastor told his small Boise congregation that gay, lesbian and transgender people should be executed by the government, which lined up with similar sermons from a Texas fundamentalist pastor.
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others. Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.
We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.
Police have the alleged shooter in custody, he was subdued at the scene by bystanders. No word yet as to motive for the shooting, but the man has been arrested before (2021) for making a homemade explosive device and making a bomb threat against a couple of homes. Perhaps blaming people for inciting Lee Aldrich to the shoot up the nightclub is a bit premature until we have some evidence as to motivation and how he might have been radicalized.


No one should make light of those who died or were injured (exact figures are still being determined). Every death is a tragedy and the intentional killing and wounding those who are not an immediate danger or threat is inexcusable. But I do not see how making accusations without evidence as to what motivated this tragedy and using their deaths to score talking points against those disagreed with is being respectful to those who died. Police are still investigating whether or not this is a hate crime. It was a tragedy but have yet to determine whether it being a LGBTQ nightclub was a factor.


Language that is used against people we oppose matters, whether the people we disapprove of are LGBTQ, liberals, or conservatives. I do not approve of or support the Idaho pastor for calling for gays to be executed. Those of us who oppose same sex marriage, who consider same sex sexual activity sinful, need to be careful of our rhetoric that we do not end up inciting violence.


But we conservatives are not the only ones who need to be careful that we do not incite violence with our speech. Inciting or supporting rioting after events we dislike, find offensive, or wrong is not something anyone should do. Democrats have incited mobbing against Republicans, after Democratic demonstrations on the Supreme Court steps, illegal demonstrations at Supreme Court Justice's homes, an attacker showed up equipped to kidnap or kill a Supreme Court Justice. After the rhetoric about the Dobbs decision there has been a wave of vandalism and arson against non-abortion clinics for women. The possibility that rhetoric will inflame violent activity should give all of us caution and reason to reexamine what we say lest we incite violence.


The deaths in Colorado are a tragedy and should not be exploited by anyone for political talking points. If the motivation was as a hate crime against LGBTQ people, that would be deplorable and such action is not to be tolerated and anyone who encouraged such violence should be condemned. But it cannot be assumed that anyone who disagrees with the morality of same sex sexual relationships is automatically guilty of inciting such violence any more than anyone who vocally supports abortion being legal is guilty of inciting violence against women's clinics and threats against Supreme Court Justices.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #468 on: November 20, 2022, 03:22:48 PM »
I only ask that we be careful about how we speak and the words we use, lest they unintentionally encourage others to go further, usually towards violence. And, of course, there is a risk that those who speak what they believe to be the “direct words of God” might cause others to believe that even their extreme acts are done under God’s command.
Also, noting the theme of this thread, there are a disturbing number of Christians who believe they can expand the faith by writing  it into the laws of our nation. In seeking political power, they forget that political power is not the sort of power that Christians are supposed to be exercising.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

John_Hannah

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #469 on: November 20, 2022, 03:32:36 PM »
I only ask that we be careful about how we speak and the words we use, lest they unintentionally encourage others to go further, usually towards violence. And, of course, there is a risk that those who speak what they believe to be the “direct words of God” might cause others to believe that even their extreme acts are done under God’s command.
Also, noting the theme of this thread, there are a disturbing number of Christians who believe they can expand the faith by writing  it into the laws of our nation. In seeking political power, they forget that political power is not the sort of power that Christians are supposed to be exercising.

That is clear from today's Holy Gospel. Everyone there is badly mistaken about Jesus' anointing as Messiah and his Kingdom. That is except the second criminal who clearly understood his own misdeeds as well as Jesus' kingdom which extends beyond his death. Those who made the sign, "King of the Jews" were absolutely correct although quite unintentionally.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Jim Butler

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #470 on: November 20, 2022, 03:38:29 PM »
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others.

Please show where I make "light of the deaths of at least five people", etc. If you can point out specific words and phrases, I will immediately apologize. If you cannot point to anything, then you need to apologize for making false accusations.

Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.

Who is this person I don't like? What is this institution I don't like? Please, name specifics. Also, please share how you know how I feel about this "someone" or this "institution."

I didn't say anything about any particular person or institution. I simply took issue with this anonymously written "news article." In my view, once the reporter had written that no motive was known, that should have ended the article. Everything else in the article--the Pulse nightclub, some fundie in Idaho, other shootings in Colorado, your shoe size--was completely irrelevant. Writing as though there was some connection is pure speculation on the part of the author. As far as I'm concerned the only reason for the author to include all of that is to attempt to build a Narrative.

We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.

It can. Now what evidence did the reporter give that demonstrated that the shooter in Colorado had ever listened to or had any other interaction with preaching in Texas, Minnesota, Idaho, or Massachusetts?

Because the thesis of the reporter's article was not that what was said in Idaho "affect[ed] Colorado" but that it affected this specific shooter. But what if this shooter had never heard or paid attention to what was preached in Texas, Minnesota, Idaho, or anywhere else? Then what affect would this have on him?

One might as well argue that since the shooter in the Gabbie Giffords case had written screeds about how punctuation was an attempt at mind control, then reporters and editors at the New York Times were responsible for that shooting. It makes as much sense.

(Kieth Edwards, a member of the Lincoln Project, has blamed the person behind the Twitter handle "Libs of TikTok" although there is no evidence that the shooter has even heard of it let alone was influenced by it. This is the same type of argument.)

People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.

I 'usually complain' about poorly written AP articles? Please demonstrate this.

If anything, the article you posted did exactly what you accuse me of. It took a horrible tragedy   and then proceeded to "post [the reporter's] usual complaints" without any evidence that they had any connection with the shooter. S/he used the fact that "people died" (actually, people were murdered in cold blood) as a pretext to build a Narrative, thus trivializing the deaths and wounds of many.

And, by posting the article, you did the same. You, not me, are the one who used the murder of innocents to post your usual complaints.
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #471 on: November 20, 2022, 04:42:43 PM »
Also, noting the theme of this thread, there are a disturbing number of Christians who believe they can expand the faith by writing  it into the laws of our nation. In seeking political power, they forget that political power is not the sort of power that Christians are supposed to be exercising.
I'm sure that what you say is true, there have been various Christians who believe that Christianity can and should be legislated as the law of the land. There have been various forms of Dominion Theology such as R. J. Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionism. But generally, these have been fringe movements rather serious threats to our nonsectarian democracy.


This observation that you make is, however, quite vague. Obviously, it would apply to the few who seriously advocate making America into some form of religiously dominated theocracy. Who else? You are unspecific as to who you would consider as attempting to write their faith into the laws of our nation. Would you designate anyone in this discussion as doing so? Would your caution against writing one's faith into the laws of our nation include anyone who advocates for a law that agrees with something taught in their religion? If so, you should not support a law against murder since the Christian Bible clearly forbids murder and to advocate a law against murder then could be considered an attempt to write part of the Christian faith into the laws of the land. Again, your complaint is vague to the point of being useless.


You write: "In seeking political power, they forget that political power is not the sort of power that Christians are supposed to be exercising." Again, you are being vague. Do you say that Christians should never seek political power? If so then, you condemn President Biden who professes to be a devout Christian (Roman Catholic) and sought and wields the political power of our highest governmental office. Or are you saying that when a person enters public office, they must in office wall off their faith and exercise their office as though they had not religious faith? Would you say that Christians should act in public as though they had no faith? Surely not.


This is a delicate balance. I agree that there have been, and probably are people who seek improperly to use political power to advance what they see as their Christian faith and impose it on others. To do so is wrong. I strongly suspect there are those who seek improperly to use political power to suppress and exclude religion and people live out their religion in their lives from public life. That also is wrong. The first amendment has both a Free Exercise and Establishment clauses. Both are important and often in tension. There will likely always be those who want to use one of those clauses against the other. Both need to be maintained.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 04:47:33 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #472 on: November 20, 2022, 06:24:51 PM »
How has what you call “this evil” affected you? You may readily deliver the unrepentant “them” to Lucifer, but precisely how has their [same sex] marriage “befallen” you?

Now, though, you're in lockstep with John Donne.   ::)

We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Matt Hummel

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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #474 on: November 20, 2022, 10:49:19 PM »
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others. Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.
We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.

https://m.facebook.com/k9comfort/photos/a.10150200660138010/10160877406818010/?type=3&av=638755788&eav=Afa-Zk35MEp5xDGZcNn6DqYQOFDEZ-wEB06MvoTNMPWeuKOisdTjFXZOjd2M_RjnDek&source=48&refid=52&__tn__=EH-R&paipv=0
Don Kirchner

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DCharlton

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #475 on: November 20, 2022, 11:01:57 PM »
The motive behind Saturday’s shooting was not immediately known but it brought back memories of the 2016 massacre at the the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida, that killed 49 people. And it occurred in a state that has experienced several notorious mass killings, including at Columbine High School, a movie theater in a Denver suburb in 2012 and a Boulder supermarket last year.
   In June, 31 members of the neo-Nazi group Patriot Front were arrested in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, and charged with conspiracy to riot at a Pride event. Experts warned that extremist groups could see anti-gay rhetoric as a call to action.
   The previous month, a fundamentalist Idaho pastor told his small Boise congregation that gay, lesbian and transgender people should be executed by the government, which lined up with similar sermons from a Texas fundamentalist pastor.

It is certainly right to call out neo-Nazi groups and Christian fundamentalists who conspire to commit violence or who use violent rhetoric. The fact of the matter, however, is that the Pulse Nightclub shooting was not perpetrated by neo-Nazis or Christian fundamentalists.  It was perpetrated by an American Muslim who was aggrieved by actions taken by the US in the war on terror.   
David Charlton  

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #476 on: November 20, 2022, 11:14:31 PM »
And thank you for making light of the deaths of at least five people and the wounding and many others. Your first response was to project your own hostility toward someone you don’t like and an institution you don’t like.
We are a nation. What is preached in Texas (or even in Minnesota) can easily affect Colorado or where you live.
People died. But they did give you a chance to post your usual complaints.

https://m.facebook.com/k9comfort/photos/a.10150200660138010/10160877406818010/?type=3&av=638755788&eav=Afa-Zk35MEp5xDGZcNn6DqYQOFDEZ-wEB06MvoTNMPWeuKOisdTjFXZOjd2M_RjnDek&source=48&refid=52&__tn__=EH-R&paipv=0
LutheranChurch Charities (an LCMS RSO) responded to the Pulse nightclub shooting with their K-9 Comfort Dogs and were a great comfort to the survivors,
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Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #477 on: November 21, 2022, 04:05:40 AM »
The organization providing the pastoral pups, the helping hounds, the Christian canines, the preaching pooches, while recognized by the LCMS, does not appear to be specifically or solely LCMS. This is good.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #478 on: November 21, 2022, 08:16:21 AM »
Charles,

Are you okay? Your posts the last few days are making no sense. They are simply inane.

I apologize for ridiculing you, because I think your oppositional attitude is out of control.

Seriously, maybe take a break?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #479 on: November 21, 2022, 08:56:26 AM »
The organization providing the pastoral pups, the helping hounds, the Christian canines, the preaching pooches, while recognized by the LCMS, does not appear to be specifically or solely LCMS. This is good.
In what way does the Lutheran Church Charities, the organization providing the K-9 Comfort Dogs, appear to not be specifically or solely LCMS?  Why do you consider that good?
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