Author Topic: Christian Nationalism? No  (Read 18100 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #420 on: November 18, 2022, 12:59:05 PM »
Terrorists hide behind civilians. They imbed themselves in places one cannot bomb without killing the innocent. Imagine the frustration of taking aim at an  enemy advancing toward you behind a line of captured children. The enemy is evil. Its captives are not. Even its soldiers are not, except in so far as they are deceived. The real evil is always abstract-- an idea, an ideology.

The lgbtqia+ ideology (that erotic attraction defines a person but biological sex does not, that male and female are constructs, that orgasm is a matter of self-expression unrelated to procreation, that mingling one's body with another does not affect bodily autonomy, etc.) advances behind a growing line of captives-- innocent children and deceived activists. It is difficult to know how to fight it. A twelve year old boy desperately wanting to be castrated and become a girl is a tragedy. To support it is evil. But the boy is not evil, he is a captive. No sense attacking him. Two men who think they are husband and wife (or that husband and husband is the same thing) are deceived. The fruit of this ideology is barrenness and abortion.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #421 on: November 18, 2022, 01:14:27 PM »
The responses Charles made above show a lack of concern about the culture of our nation.  What we do and don't do affects others, it's not all about whether I am harmed or "freaked out" by what others do.  It's about the cumulative effect of innumerable actions on the whole of society.  The idea that, should someone's actions not have an immediate and direct effect on me, I cannot claim harm is just fundamentally wrong.  I just saw that a woman and her 4 year old child were murdered in the town I live in.  I did not know them.  It did not happen near me.  I suspect I know no one who did know her.  But to say I'm unaffected by the murders is just untrue for my entire community is damaged by that sin.  Community matters.


So, you want to make the culture of our nation more Christian. That sounds like Christian Nationalism.


Frankly, I prefer the culture of today (with same-sex marriages) over that of decades past when homosexuals were persecuted. Christians who oppose them need to remember Jesus' command to love our enemies.
Yes, you prefer current culture because it conforms with your Christianity.  You're winning.  How are you any different than "those people"?

(My obvious answer: you're not, and I have no particular interest in living in your theocracy either.)
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Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #422 on: November 18, 2022, 01:19:23 PM »
But in our nation, heterosexual marriages, although they may be serial, one after another, still overwhelmingly outnumber gay marriage. And so…?
I don’t think minor children should be allowed to make decisions involving surgery.
Pastor Preus, you are not and never will be in a gay marriage. You avoid the “gay culture.“ so how are you affected (other than your feelings of shock and disgust)?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #423 on: November 18, 2022, 01:54:40 PM »
Pastor Preus, you are not and never will be in a gay marriage. You avoid the “gay culture.“ so how are you affected (other than your feelings of shock and disgust)?

Do not be intentionally dense.

I’m not sure if your denseness on this topic is due to the fact that...for some reason, you just don’t get it.

And surely you cannot be that dense.

Don Kirchner

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RDPreus

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #424 on: November 18, 2022, 02:12:20 PM »
But in our nation, heterosexual marriages, although they may be serial, one after another, still overwhelmingly outnumber gay marriage. And so…?
I don’t think minor children should be allowed to make decisions involving surgery.
Pastor Preus, you are not and never will be in a gay marriage. You avoid the “gay culture.“ so how are you affected (other than your feelings of shock and disgust)?

Rev. Austin, God has blessed me and my wife with twelve children and seventy-five grandchildren, most of whom live here in America.    My grandchildren are growing up and will soon have children of their own.  They are very dear to me.  I want the best for them.  I know that we have here no continuing city but seek the one to come.  Still, I love my country and it pains me deeply to see it suffer from the assault of godlessness.  I fear for America.  I believe that God destroys nations that flaunt his law and promote unrighteousness as if it were righteousness.  I live in a beautiful part of the world.  Right now, it's a winter wonderland.  Clean, natural, God's country.  I would not want to live in a rundown part of a big city littered with trash and smelling like a sewer.  Same sex "marriage" does to our culture, our national identity, our understanding of what is good and decent, what trash dumped next to your house does to your home.

btw, my heart goes out for those afflicted with same sex sexual attraction.  I think of the words of that hymn, "Hast thou not seen how thy desires all have been granted in what he ordaineth?"  But same sex sexual desires have not been granted, nor can they be fulfilled, in a God-pleasing manner.  Those who teach people that same sex sexual desires can be fulfilled in a God-pleasing manner may, in their own mind, be motivated by love and compassion.  But, Rev. Austin, it is a false compassion that encourages people to do what will surely send them to hell.  Love teaches repentance and faith.  It teaches folks to rely on God's grace, not only to forgive sins, but to give power to resist temptation.  Promoting and defending same sex "marriage" consigns men and women to slavery to their sinful desires.  That's not love. 

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #425 on: November 18, 2022, 02:55:00 PM »
Charles you continual berate RDPreus for his concern over same sex marriage and what you perceive as his lack of understanding of gay culture. Apparently you think that since it does not directly affect him or his congregation, he has no reason for concern.
  Pastor Preus, you are not and never will be in a gay marriage. You avoid the “gay culture.“ so how are you affected (other than your feelings of shock and disgust)?

Asking why he objects to gay marriage:
  Does it corrupt the marriages in your parish? The marriages were you preside? How? Does marriage always have to be for the sake of children?


How many people engaged in same-sex marriages do you know, Pastor Preus? How has what you call “this evil” affected you? You may readily deliver the unrepentant “them” to Lucifer, but precisely how has their marriage “befallen” you? Maybe you have had to give up shopping at Ikea? Or stopped playing Judy Garland recordings?

You also have expressed grave concern over Jack Philips and the Masterpiece Cakeshop case with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, contending that Jack Philips had no right to refuse to create a cake for a same sex wedding. What’s it to you? Were you or a member of your family, or even someone you know refused a cake at that Cakeshop? Did the refusal of Mr. Philips to create a cake for the occasion prevent the couple from being married? Did his refusal even mean that the couple couldn’t get a cake for the occasion according to their specifications? There were plenty of other bakers willing and eager to fulfill their order. Why has this gotten your knickers in a twist?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 02:59:46 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Terry W Culler

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #426 on: November 18, 2022, 03:08:42 PM »
Dan: don't you know that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds?
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #427 on: November 18, 2022, 03:44:19 PM »
I do not berate Pastor Preus. He has a right to his opinion.
He fears for America. So do I, sometimes, but for different reasons.
He says he loves his country. But he apparently does not love the urban part of it.
He says his “heart goes out“ to homosexuals. But in a chance encounter with one, his reaction is freaking out and disgust and get-me-out-of-here.
He says he lives in “God’s country.” No, Pastor Preus, the cities are also God's country. And if there is trash in the streets of the city, it is still God’s country, and the disorder is often due to human sinn and our failure to care for our neighbors properly.
Congratulations on your large family. I wish I thought you could also congratulate those who feel led a different direction.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #428 on: November 18, 2022, 03:56:16 PM »
Pastor Preus:
….my wife and I ran into these two guys and an older woman on Buck Hill at Theodore Roosevelt National Park and when, making polite conversation, I asked the men if they were brothers, one of them replied, "No, he's my husband."  I was freaked out.  My wife and I smiled politely and resumed our walk.
Me:
I’m willing to bet that those with whom you were conversing did not consider that smile “polite.“ and why were you freaked out? What effect did their presence on that walk and in that conversation have on you?


I do not berate Pastor Preus. He has a right to his opinion.
He fears for America. So do I, sometimes, but for different reasons.
He says he loves his country. But he apparently does not love the urban part of it.
He says his “heart goes out“ to homosexuals. But in a chance encounter with one, his reaction is freaking out and disgust and get-me-out-of-here.
He says he lives in “God’s country.” No, Pastor Preus, the cities are also God's country. And if there is trash in the streets of the city, it is still God’s country, and the disorder is often due to human sinn and our failure to care for our neighbors properly.
Congratulations on your large family. I wish I thought you could also congratulate those who feel led a different direction.
You doubt whether Pr. Preus' smile would be accepted or taken as polite. I have a hard time hearing your reaction to Pr. Preus as not berating.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 04:04:29 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #429 on: November 18, 2022, 04:29:45 PM »
So, you want to make the culture of our nation more Christian. That sounds like Christian Nationalism.

Good grief, yes! Don't you?

That sounds like Christian Nationalism.

Not according to this description.

http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=8208.msg522309#msg522309
Don Kirchner

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peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #430 on: November 18, 2022, 04:35:26 PM »
In many places there domestic partnerships laws that allowed two people by mutual consent to enjoy all the legal privileges of married couples (tax forms, hospital visitation, etc.) without being recognized as married. It could be elderly siblings living together, could be a gay couple, whatever. Why was that not good enough? Who is injured by not having their relationship formally, publicly, and legally declared the same as marriage? Nobody. Except, of course, that gay people would say that isn't exactly true. Laws reflect the values and worldview of the culture.Iy was important to gay people not merely to have some legal benefit of marriage, it was important to have the cultural stamp of approval. And the same is true in reverse. It isn't that I suffer harm. It is that my marriage is declared the same as a gay marriage. The culture declares my values not the values of the culture.

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #431 on: November 18, 2022, 04:36:47 PM »
So; Amen to RD Preus.

Along this line: One phrase in the PC signs that popped up in people’s yards proclaimed “Love is love.”
This sounds nice but is wrong.

Love can be disordered… love of money for example.

God is love means we love what God loves in the natural order of Adam and Eve.

And yes, pace Preus, we can love people whose love is disordered and that love calls for a corrective to the disorder by first naming it for what it is.

Peter (Adam and Eve sitting in a tree K I S S I N G - first comes love then comes marriage then comes baby in a baby carriage) Garrison
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 04:39:19 PM by pastorg1@aol.com »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #432 on: November 18, 2022, 04:50:59 PM »
Peter:
The culture declares my values not the values of the culture.
Me:
Happens to me all the time. Guns. Professional sports. Military service. Columbus Day.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Charles Austin

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #433 on: November 18, 2022, 05:12:59 PM »
Peter you allow the marriage of divorced people whose first (or second or third) spouses survive to be called marriage, contra to scripture. So what’s in the word if the spouses are gay?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #434 on: November 18, 2022, 05:45:50 PM »
Peter:
The culture declares my values not the values of the culture.
Me:
Happens to me all the time. Guns. Professional sports. Military service. Columbus Day.
And when you get a chance to speak out or vote against those things, you do so. Whenever I object to some aspect of our culture, you think "That's the way it is whether you like it or not, so get used to it," is an adequate argument against me, but the same is never an adequate argument against you when it comes to things you don't like. You're all about activism to get the changes you want, but dismiss as fascist any activism against things you like.

My point is that gay marriage "hurts" RDPreus in the exact same degree that lack of legal gay marriages (with legal recourse to domestic partnership arrangements) "hurt" gay people. The issue never was equal rights, it was the definition of marriage. An institution that arose among us precisely because of the nature of humanity as male and female and the facts of procreation has been redefined as having nothing to do with those things. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 06:41:34 PM by peter_speckhard »