Author Topic: Christian Nationalism? No  (Read 13460 times)

Matt Hummel

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2022, 01:49:07 PM »
The president is not the only problem.
We have people running for the House and the Senate who may be as stupid and/or crazy as The Ex. Some of them are likely to get elected.
Some of them might be acting certain ways to win the support of the T-cultists.
But some of them really believe the nutty ideas and lies which they spout on their campaign trails.

Unlike stalwart and squared away folks like The Squad and Maxine Waters, etc.

But I agree that the Republicans are being led off the cliff. If I thought him capable of it intellectually, I would almost think Trump really hated the Republican Party and was maneuvering to destroy for at least a decade or two.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2022, 02:59:40 PM »
"Christian Nationalism" is just another of those terms of derogation aimed in general at anyone who is right of center in our nation.  It goes along with "White Privilege", "Semi-fascist" "Fascist", "Deplorables", "Domestic Terrorists" (especially of those parents showing up at school board meetings demanding to know what their children are being taught), "Ulta-Maga", "Maga", "People who just cling to their guns and Bibles", oh, and of course, "racist". 

In case the left hasn't figured it out yet, the only people who are stupid enough to take these epithets seriously are the folks on the left.  Those of us on the right don't even listen to this foolishness anymore.

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 903
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2022, 03:11:07 PM »
With all due respect Pr. Bolland I would disagree.  Christian nationalism equates and conflates patriotism with belief in God, and also equates certain political aims with Divine providence  so that the Will of the Nation is equated with the Will of God.  There has been a definite rise in that type of language in the past few years.  This IMO is dangerous and wrong whichever side does it, and it is something we need to pay attention too.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15325
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2022, 03:20:07 PM »
Pastor Bolland, you are wrong. The “Christian nationalism“ which I refer is a clearly defined movement, not some vague idea. It involves those who consciously intend to put “Christian“ principles into our laws. it involves those who contend that we are a “Christian“ nation or perhaps a “Judeo Christian“ nation. You list a bunch of epithets and terminologies | that offend you, but that is just a rhetorical trashbag way of ignoring a real threat.
You can deny white privilege, even though it can be proven that it exists. You could even deny domestic terrorism, even though there is clear evidence that it exists.  You can say “oh, those are just names they call people they don’t  like.”
But that is a naïve, simplistic, and terribly uninformed understanding of life in our beloved United States these days.
Tell me who those of you who are “on the right” listen to these days.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired in Minneapolis. My only Thanksgiving cooking chore: providing fresh ground, fair trade, bird friendly coffee.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 20036
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2022, 04:21:00 PM »
With all due respect Pr. Bolland I would disagree.  Christian nationalism equates and conflates patriotism with belief in God, and also equates certain political aims with Divine providence  so that the Will of the Nation is equated with the Will of God.  There has been a definite rise in that type of language in the past few years.  This IMO is dangerous and wrong whichever side does it, and it is something we need to pay attention too.
If, say, a Baptist minister says that the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice, is that equating certain political aims with Divine providence? It seems to me that for good or ill, the struggle for Civil Rights, Temperance, Women's suffrage, abolition, and the manifest destiny of westward expansion all involved greater amounts of "Christian nationalism" than anyone or any movement I see active today. 

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2022, 04:22:07 PM »
I agree that there are a few actual "nationalists" out there. What I object to is the wholesale lumping together of every sort of nutjob with everyone on the right.  The broad-based painting of all white people as racists, homophobes, etc., etc., is clear for anyone to see. If there is a growing "White Nationalist" movement out there, then it is an unfortunate overreaction to the leftists in our country doing their level best to paint us all with the same strokes.

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2022, 05:33:19 PM »
There should be no attempt to make America some divinely appointed nation. There should be no attempt to equate the ancient nation of Israel with America. Neither of these ideas is biblical. The modern nation of Israel is nothing biblical either. They are good allies in a troubled region, but they have no status as God’s chosen nation anymore. Israel today is all the people of God, who are in Christ. As St. Paul says, we (Gentiles) are grafted into Israel. I know this goes agains some of the more radical reformed folks, There is never anything today that is like the ancient nation of Israel that was directly called into being by God through Abraham. When the Romans destroyed Israel in 70 A.D., that was the end of that unique manifestation of a divinely appointed nation. It ended because Israel was consistently unfaithful and had walked away from God and rejected the Messiah. There is no need to rebuild the temple, nor re-establish the sacrificial system as Christ was the final sacrifice which was prefigured in all the animal sacrifices. Attempts today to establish a Christian nation are not of God nor His doing. We are to be in the world, not of the world. The passages sighted are talking about the Church not being unequally yoked with unbelievers. It has nothing to do with earthly governments. We need to be sharing the Gospel with all people of all times, in all nations, not trying to establish a distinctively Christian nation. Christ is already the ruler of His Kingdom and does not require the assistance of an earthly government to accomplish the fulfillment of His will.

So, no, I am no White Nationalist, but the left insists that I am through their continual smear campaign against half of the American population.

Terry W Culler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2446
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2022, 08:50:58 AM »
John Knox referred to Calvin's Geneva as the most perfect school of Christ since the Apostles.  Since the 16th century Reformed folk have seen part of their responsibility as Christians is to "Christianize" their environments.  That is not a bad goal, we should all seek to display our Christianity in the world, praying that we will affect those around us in a God-pleasing way.  But that view of our responsibilities as followers of Christ can, and occasionally does morph into something that it was never meant to be--something we today call Christian nationalism.

In our country this over emphasis on one element of our Christian life is exaggerated by the false belief that the US is or ever has been a Christian country.  When people point to those who came here seeking religious freedom, they ignore the many more who came here seeking wealth or running from the law.  John Adams said our system of government required a religious people--but John Adams was a Unitarian, so I don't think he was referring to Christian orthodoxy.

Christian nationalism, to the degree it exists, verges on heresy and is an easy target for Satan to use in attacking the Church.  As William Willimon wrote, the Christian church is an island of faith in the midst of a sea of unbelief.  That has always been true and will continue true until the Lord comes again.  Maranatha!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 10:22:52 AM by Terry W Culler »
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15325
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2022, 09:33:04 AM »
And let us not forget that many of those who came  seeking religious freedom sought it for themselves,  they did not want to offer it to others. That’s how we got the state of Rhode Island.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired in Minneapolis. My only Thanksgiving cooking chore: providing fresh ground, fair trade, bird friendly coffee.

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 903
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2022, 11:17:25 AM »
I agree that there are a few actual "nationalists" out there. What I object to is the wholesale lumping together of every sort of nutjob with everyone on the right.  The broad-based painting of all white people as racists, homophobes, etc., etc., is clear for anyone to see. If there is a growing "White Nationalist" movement out there, then it is an unfortunate overreaction to the leftists in our country doing their level best to paint us all with the same strokes.
Both sides paint with too broad a brush
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2022, 03:49:41 PM »
I agree that it would be best if everyone quit demonizing the other.

Dave Likeness

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5365
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2022, 05:54:07 PM »
The magazine "Christianity Today" in a February, 2021 issue had an
article entitled "What is Christian Nationalism?"

It stated that Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation
is defined by Christianity and that the government should take active steps
to keep it that way.  Christian nationalists assert that America is and must
remain a "Christian nation".

Personally, my stance would be that America is NOT a Christian nation but
a nation in which some of our population are Christians.  Lutheran theology
has an emphasis on the separation of church and state. We do not believe
in a church-state or a state-church.

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #102 on: October 05, 2022, 07:34:43 PM »
I would add one caution to this discussion.  Who has the authority to define someone else's political philosophy?  I have seen far too many definitions placed on people on the right made up by people on the fringe left.  Christianity Today is a decidedly left-leaning religious publication and I would question their authority or ability to define a movement on the Christian Right.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 20036
    • View Profile
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #103 on: October 05, 2022, 07:59:25 PM »
Turkey is (or was for a king time) a nation with a secular government. Does that make it wrong for a Turk to think of Turkey as a Muslim nation? It isn’t officially, but by long history and tradition and ongoing culture, it can fairly be described as a Muslim nation. Regardless of the personal faith of any particular person involved, America is a product of Christendom and could not have been founded by 18th Century Chinese, Indian, or Muslim settlers.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15325
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Christian Nationalism? No
« Reply #104 on: October 05, 2022, 10:56:05 PM »
Dave Likeness writes:
Lutheran theology has an emphasis on the separation of church and state. We do not believe in a church-state or a state-church.
I comment:
“Lutheran theology” has no such thing. In some countries the Lutheran Church is the state church. And some other parts of the world taxes paid to the state support the church.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired in Minneapolis. My only Thanksgiving cooking chore: providing fresh ground, fair trade, bird friendly coffee.