Author Topic: Guns? Why?  (Read 6950 times)

DCharlton

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2022, 03:03:55 PM »
But I ask you again, what do you say to the family members and friends of those who die in these mass shootings?

What will you say to family members and friends of those who die from fentanyl overdoses?  In my community, fentanyl deaths exceed gun deaths.  How will you explain your support of open borders, which allows more fentanyl to flow into my community?  Afterall, I-10 runs right along the border in parts of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, then it goes through the Panhandle of Florida, where local dealers pick it up in places like Crestview and Mossy Head.  Then it's a mere 20 minute drive to Niceville. How will you explain yourself?
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ghp

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2022, 06:23:35 PM »
Mayhaps Charles (if not his ilk) would be placated with some sort of quid pro quo linking voter registration enforcement and enforcement for gun control laws already on the books?


Which presents a greater danger to our republic, guns or vote fraud?


 ???
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2022, 06:35:59 PM »
Time for a good fisking...

So what will it take, that is, how many deaths, how many injuries, how many sorrows, will it take until we find a way to control guns?
The problem is not guns, but those who misuse them.  I note that you do not propose any workable solutions yourself.

One Shooter of recent days allegedly made deadly threats year ago, but nothing was done about it. And he obtained a gun.
If "nothing was done about it", how would any gun control law possibly work to prevent the shooter from obtaining a gun?

UPDATE - The shooter was investigated by the New York State Police and even had a mental health evaluation.  He was then released.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-supermarket-shooting-rcna28910

So much for the idea that we just need a few more laws.

I donít want to hear the old talk about how criminals will always be able to get guns. Most criminals donít go into supermarkets and kill a dozen people. And organize crime? They only shoot each other.
So why do you think you can prevent the "shooter of recent days" from getting a gun if the laws cannot prevent other criminals from obtaining guns?

It is too easy to get guns. It is too easy for the wrong people to get guns.
What would you need to do to buy a gun?  Please describe the process.  I'm betting you can't.

How about requiring every gun owner to have insurance like we have for our cars? Liability insurance. Something criminal is done with that gun, and you pay, or an insurance company pays, or the manufacturer of the weapon page.
If you were to use a car to intentionally run someone over, your car insurance would not pay.  Likewise, if a criminal had gun insurance, it would not cover his illegal acts.  And why should the manufacturer of the car or the gun pay?

Then, letís come down hard on politicians and public officials who make loose talk about immigrants, about minorities, about America first, meaning white supremacy. Letís tell them we will not tolerate that kind of language, and get them out of office, get them out of public life. You will never convince that this kind of language does not encourage the crazies to do crazy things.
Are you calling for laws against such speech?  Or just vote them out?  The former is unconstitutional (except for "fighting words").  The latter takes time.  And when those of your ilkô skip trying to convince others and just demand agreement, it gets even harder.

Make it hard to own a gun. Make the penalties for improperly owning or purchasing a gun severe.
How hard shall it be to own a gun?  And is not a 10-year federal felony a severe enough penalty for an illegal purchase?

You oppose stricter gun control controls today? Then you will be partially responsible for the next round of killings.
Yep.  I knew you were going to go there.  We should all just do what you demand (even if you don't know what to demand) or we are responsible for anything that goes wrong.

Next you'll be screeching "DO SOMETHING!"
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 07:29:53 PM by James S. Rustad »

James S. Rustad

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2022, 06:41:25 PM »
In Minnesota, where I live and hold a concealed carry permit, one must pass a shooting test (along with the classroom portion of the training) before receiving the permit.  And permits must be renewed (along with the class and shooting test) every 5 years.

Not in Arizona. If you're over 21 you can carry a concealed weapon. They can't carry it into California, though.

There are now 25 states that require no permit to carry a concealed weapon.  Those states are still not experiencing the blood baths that were predicted every time a state loosened its laws on weapons.


Coach-Rev

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2022, 07:14:33 PM »
So why do we allow Charles to blatantly ignore the rules here and post yet another highly partisan and political screed against guns?  Seems he (and all of you) rehash this every year or two, usually when some nutjob who slips through the system on multiple levels uses a gun to kill others.

I vote to shut this thread down immediately.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2022, 08:16:43 PM »
James Rustad:
What would you need to do to buy a gun?  Please describe the process.  I'm betting you can't.
Me:
Rigid background checks. Diligent search of police records. Proof of prior training and proper gun handling, including storage. Significant waiting period between time of purchase and delivery of the gun purchased.  State and federal taxes, significant taxes on all purchases of guns and ammunition. Heavy fines and mandatory jail time for all violations.
Thatís a start.

James Rustad:
Are you calling for laws against such speech?  Or just vote them out?  The former is unconstitutional (except for "fighting words").  The latter takes time.  And when those of your ilkô skip trying to convince others and just demand agreement, it gets even harder.
Me:
I mean letting all who use that incendiary language filled with code words for white supremacists and racists know That we are onto them and that they will not be elected.
I mean monitoring those groups that are planning violence based on their racist or white supremacist ideologies.
I mean much more ďcalling outď of those who drift towards that side in their language and political activities.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2022, 09:26:53 PM »
James Rustad:
What would you need to do to buy a gun?  Please describe the process.  I'm betting you can't.
Me:
Rigid background checks. Diligent search of police records. Proof of prior training and proper gun handling, including storage. Significant waiting period between time of purchase and delivery of the gun purchased.  State and federal taxes, significant taxes on all purchases of guns and ammunition. Heavy fines and mandatory jail time for all violations.
Thatís a start.
And if that doesn't stop people from buying guns, what's next? Raise taxes still higher until it doubles the cost of guns? Ration ammunition to one round a week? What is your real purpose, keeping guns out of the hands of those who would misuse them,  or just keeping guns out of hands of people?

Quote
James Rustad:
Are you calling for laws against such speech?  Or just vote them out?  The former is unconstitutional (except for "fighting words").  The latter takes time.  And when those of your ilkô skip trying to convince others and just demand agreement, it gets even harder.
Me:
I mean letting all who use that incendiary language filled with code words for white supremacists and racists know That we are onto them and that they will not be elected.
I mean monitoring those groups that are planning violence based on their racist or white supremacist ideologies.
I mean much more ďcalling outď of those who drift towards that side in their language and political activities.




With people on the lookout for white supremacist code words and dog whistles invisible to ordinary people, visible only to those looking for them, how do we tell the difference between dangerous white supremacist talk and just innocent talk by someone not in the know? Is there a dictionary or authoritative list somewhere? Especially important since it seems assumed by some that the way you can tell if a white is employing white supremacist dog whistles and codes is if a white is talking.








« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 09:35:41 PM by Dan Fienen »
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2022, 10:08:56 PM »
James Rustad:
What would you need to do to buy a gun?  Please describe the process.  I'm betting you can't.
Me:
Rigid background checks. Diligent search of police records. Proof of prior training and proper gun handling, including storage. Significant waiting period between time of purchase and delivery of the gun purchased.  State and federal taxes, significant taxes on all purchases of guns and ammunition. Heavy fines and mandatory jail time for all violations.
Thatís a start.
The request was to describe what you would have to do to buy a gun right now, not in your fantasy future.  I'm betting that you can't describe the process that is in place today.

James Rustad:
Are you calling for laws against such speech?  Or just vote them out?  The former is unconstitutional (except for "fighting words").  The latter takes time.  And when those of your ilkô skip trying to convince others and just demand agreement, it gets even harder.
Me:
I mean letting all who use that incendiary language filled with code words for white supremacists and racists know That we are onto them and that they will not be elected.
I mean monitoring those groups that are planning violence based on their racist or white supremacist ideologies.
I mean much more ďcalling outď of those who drift towards that side in their language and political activities.

So you mean just what we are doing today.  No legal changes, just exercising out rights as is already done.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2022, 07:13:54 AM »
Read this morning:

Quote
A law enforcement official told The Associated Press on Sunday that Gedron had threatened to carry out a shooting last year at Susquehanna Valley High School around the time of graduation. He was 17 years old at the time and was sent for mental health treatment.

https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/crime/heres-whats-known-so-far-about-the-suspected-tops-mass-shooter-crime-buffalo-hate-community/71-5096aa58-7463-4a82-a6c4-8e577e44e9ee

This teen should not have had guns or access to guns. Oddly, he is from an area of New York that has few minorities. God, have pity.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2022, 08:48:10 AM »
And yet, the Buffalo shooter, already marked by having made death threats, was able to buy a gun legally. And folks say the current restrictions on gun purchases are enough.

Pastor Fienen:
With people on the lookout for white supremacist code words and dog whistles invisible to ordinary people, visible only to those looking for them, how do we tell the difference between dangerous white supremacist talk and just innocent talk by someone not in the know?
Me:
It ain't rocket surgery. We do have ways of knowing who is speaking, whence they come, their audience and intent. Good grief, the FBI and CIA have been following, tagging, and monitoring leftists for decades.

Pastor Fienen:
Is there a dictionary or authoritative list somewhere? Especially important since it seems assumed by some that the way you can tell if a white is employing white supremacist dog whistles and codes is if a white is talking.
Me:
How far will you go to minimize the threats of these dangerous people? Pretty far, I guess. You just dismiss the whole matter with trivia and a snarky "well! you, too!" brush off.
We have had so many members of Congress, ex-members of Congress, governors, political party leaders, candidate wannabes, right-wingers with media access, Tucker Carlson clones and an ex-President blow so many dog whistles so loudly that Snoopy and Odie practically jumped off the comics pages.
Stop trying to defuse the threat and recognize that a serious movement exists to create racial and ethnic hatred among us.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2022, 09:57:08 AM »
And yet, the Buffalo shooter, already marked by having made death threats, was able to buy a gun legally. And folks say the current restrictions on gun purchases are enough.

Pastor Fienen:
With people on the lookout for white supremacist code words and dog whistles invisible to ordinary people, visible only to those looking for them, how do we tell the difference between dangerous white supremacist talk and just innocent talk by someone not in the know?
Me:
It ain't rocket surgery. We do have ways of knowing who is speaking, whence they come, their audience and intent. Good grief, the FBI and CIA have been following, tagging, and monitoring leftists for decades.

Pastor Fienen:
Is there a dictionary or authoritative list somewhere? Especially important since it seems assumed by some that the way you can tell if a white is employing white supremacist dog whistles and codes is if a white is talking.
Me:
How far will you go to minimize the threats of these dangerous people? Pretty far, I guess. You just dismiss the whole matter with trivia and a snarky "well! you, too!" brush off.
We have had so many members of Congress, ex-members of Congress, governors, political party leaders, candidate wannabes, right-wingers with media access, Tucker Carlson clones and an ex-President blow so many dog whistles so loudly that Snoopy and Odie practically jumped off the comics pages.
Stop trying to defuse the threat and recognize that a serious movement exists to create racial and ethnic hatred among us.
Yes, I agree that there are those who seek to create racial and ethnic hatred among us. I haven't sought those out on the internet, but news reporting has pointed out their existence and I don't doubt that they lurk in the dark corners of the internet. By the accounts of the Buffalo shooter, he was radicalized by such web sites. They are a danger.


What I complain about is the tendency by some on the left to want to label anything that in any way disagrees with their screeds as hate speech. There is also at least the potential with the hunt for dog whistles and code words of white supremacy, micro triggers and micro aggressions, to make the definition of white supremacist hate speech so broad that just about anything said that the watch dog doesn't like or is said by someone they dislike can be labeled a dog whistle.


Hate speech and incitement of racial and other (gender, ethnic, religious, etc.) hatred is a serious problem and we need to find ways to deal with it. But this hypersensitive search for ways to label people as hate mongers ends up trivializes the problem. If we spend so much time and effort ferreting out innocuous indiscretions, when real hate speech turns up it gets lost in the forest of overblown outrage. Labeling half of the nation as white supremacist racists does little but trivialize the problem. Labeling the Republican Party as all white supremacists ends up being simply a political ploy.


Three middle school boys at the Kiel, Wisconsin Middle School are being investigated for sexual harassment for using incorrect pronouns for a fellow student. https://www.wilx.com/2022/05/16/middle-schoolers-accused-sexual-harassment-not-using-preferred-pronouns-parents-say/ Sexual harassment is a serious matter, and accusations of sexual harassment should be a serious matter. Everybody needs to be taught not to sexually harass other people, and when it happens it needs to be dealt with. But sexual harassment over which pronoun is used? Isn't that a bit of an overkill? Sexual harassment usually includes such things as rape, inappropriate groping or touching, profane and sexually explicit language or suggestion and the like. But to bring the full discipline mechanism of sexual harassment over pronouns? A suggestion that politeness indicates use of preferred pronouns when known, even if illogical, maybe a reprimand for repeated offense. But full sexual harassment investigation? 

 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 10:11:08 AM by Dan Fienen »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2022, 10:13:19 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Labeling half of the nation as white supremacist racists does little but trivialize the problem. Labeling the Republican Party as all white supremacists ends up being simply a political ploy.
Me:
Nobody here is doing that. However, I personally do not hear enough voices from the Republican Party speaking against the Tucker Carlson diatribes, the bat-crap craziness of Ms. Greene, or some of the others blowing the whistles and whipping up ground-level troops. The Republican Party is not "all white supremacists," but sometimes you cannot tell that by listening to its leaders.
And candidates who have - in private - vigorously repudiated the garbage speak from The Ex, will not do so in public, seeking his endorsement and the votes from his cultists. Shame on them.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

DeHall1

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2022, 10:17:30 AM »
And yet, the Buffalo shooter, already marked by having made death threats, was able to buy a gun legally. And folks say the current restrictions on gun purchases are enough.

New York has so-called "Red Flag" laws, which allows courts to issue an "extreme risk protection order that temporarily prevents people who pose a threat to themselves or others from buying or possessing firearms".

The Buffalo shooter had previously threatened an attack at his high school, and was referred for a mental health evaluation. 

For me, the question is why wasn't he "red flagged", since he posed a threat to others. 

That's not a failure  "of Congress, ex-members of Congress, governors, political party leaders, candidate wannabes, right-wingers with media access".

It's a failure of local police, district attorneys, family members, and in this case, school administrators.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2022, 10:32:27 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Labeling half of the nation as white supremacist racists does little but trivialize the problem. Labeling the Republican Party as all white supremacists ends up being simply a political ploy.
Me:
Nobody here is doing that. However, I personally do not hear enough voices from the Republican Party speaking against the Tucker Carlson diatribes, the bat-crap craziness of Ms. Greene, or some of the others blowing the whistles and whipping up ground-level troops. The Republican Party is not "all white supremacists," but sometimes you cannot tell that by listening to its leaders.
And candidates who have - in private - vigorously repudiated the garbage speak from The Ex, will not do so in public, seeking his endorsement and the votes from his cultists. Shame on them.
When you write, "Nobody here is doing that." do you mean nobody on this internet forum, or no Democrat or politician or celebrity usually considered liberal or on the left is doing that?
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Guns? Why?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2022, 10:34:28 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Labeling half of the nation as white supremacist racists does little but trivialize the problem. Labeling the Republican Party as all white supremacists ends up being simply a political ploy.
Me:
Nobody here is doing that. However, I personally do not hear enough voices from the Republican Party speaking against the Tucker Carlson diatribes, the bat-crap craziness of Ms. Greene, or some of the others blowing the whistles and whipping up ground-level troops. The Republican Party is not "all white supremacists," but sometimes you cannot tell that by listening to its leaders.
And candidates who have - in private - vigorously repudiated the garbage speak from The Ex, will not do so in public, seeking his endorsement and the votes from his cultists. Shame on them.

So, they aren't white supremacists.  But they might be.