Author Topic: Roe v. Wade overturned?  (Read 31146 times)

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #780 on: June 24, 2022, 10:24:54 PM »
Everyone is getting into the act: The Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco-  “We… condemn the overturning of Roe vs. Wade.”

Big whoop.

Can’t wait for their curating decisions coming up this year.

Peter (Just do your job and show me the pretty pictures) Garrison

Yup, it's no prob. Disney, etc are lining up to fly their employees to states (MN) to get their abortions.

Quite a list, and growing.   A few surprises like Tesla and JP Morgan.
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Robert Johnson

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #781 on: June 24, 2022, 10:36:47 PM »
Yup, it's no prob. Disney, etc are lining up to fly their employees to states (MN) to get their abortions.

It's obvious. Paying for an abortion and a plane ticket is much cheaper than whatever maternity leave costs.

It's all about the Benjamins.

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #782 on: June 24, 2022, 10:46:21 PM »
Dick's Sporting Goods pays for the mother and a support person to a state that allows for abortion.

Jeremy (I buy all my fishing hooks and lures at Walmart, which I'm sure is already problematic.)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #783 on: June 25, 2022, 12:49:55 AM »
The decision is both more and less than most people think. More, in that it will be seen as a major shift in what can happen among us. Less in that it will not accomplish anything like what the pro life movement wants.

For shiggles, what is it, exactly, that you think the pro life movement wants?

Free health care, especially for infants and mothers. Affordable day care. Livable wages, especially for single mothers. Longer and universal paid maternity and paternity leave for new parents.

See, John Hannah! It's a miracle! We changed Brian's mind! He's now  promoting the pro-life movement!


I've been saying this from the beginning. No minds were changed. Pro-choice can mean, choose life.
So
Yes, it can. Don't forget, Pontius Pilate was morally opposed to Jesus's execution, considered Him an innocent man undeserving of death and said so. But he was pro-choice, having delivered his opinion and moral concerns he washed his hands of the decision and left it up to the Jewish authorities. Pro-choice at work.


Jesus said long before Pilate had any say in it, that he MUST suffer, die, and be raised. Pilate's choice to allow the crucifixion was like Mary's choice about becoming pregnant.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #784 on: June 25, 2022, 04:05:51 AM »
From today’s NY Times
Senators say Kavanaugh gave private assurances that he felt Roe should stand
WASHINGTON — During a two-hour meeting in her Senate office with the Supreme Court nominee Brett M. Kavanaugh on Aug. 21, 2018, Senator Susan Collins of Maine pressed him hard on why she should trust him not to overturn Roe v. Wade if she backed his confirmation.
   Judge Kavanaugh worked vigorously to reassure her that he was no threat to the landmark abortion rights ruling.
   “Start with my record, my respect for precedent, my belief that it is rooted in the Constitution, and my commitment and its importance to the rule of law,” he said, according to contemporaneous notes kept by multiple staff members in the meeting. “I understand precedent and I understand the importance of overturning it.”
   “Roe is 45 years old, it has been reaffirmed many times, lots of people care about it a great deal, and I’ve tried to demonstrate I understand real-world consequences,” he continued, according to the notes, adding: “I am a don’t-rock-the-boat kind of judge. I believe in stability and in the Team of Nine.”
   Persuaded, Ms. Collins, a Republican, gave a detailed speech a few weeks later laying out her rationale for backing the future justice that cited his stated commitment to precedent on Roe, helping clinch his confirmation after a bitter fight. On Friday, Justice Kavanaugh joined the majority in overturning the decision he told Ms. Collins he would protect.
   His seeming turnabout in the case on Friday prompted Ms. Collins and another senator, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, who gave Justice Kavanaugh crucial votes for his narrow confirmation to vent their anger, saying they felt their trust had been abused. Their indignation was echoed across the Capitol by lawmakers who said the court’s decision on Friday helped drain what was left of any credibility Supreme Court nominees have in their confirmation hearings.
   “I feel misled,” Ms. Collins said in an interview, adding that the decision was in stark contrast to the assurances she had received privately from Justice Kavanaugh, who had made similar, if less exhaustive, pronouncements at his public hearing.
   Mr. Manchin, the only Democrat to vote for Justice Kavanaugh, also expressed similar sentiments about Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, who made his own strong statements about adhering to precedent during his confirmation in 2017.
   “I trusted Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh when they testified under oath that they also believed Roe v. Wade was settled legal precedent and I am alarmed they chose to reject the stability the ruling has provided for two generations of Americans,” said Mr. Manchin, who himself is anti-abortion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/roe-kavanaugh-collins-notes.html

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #785 on: June 25, 2022, 08:03:49 AM »
People do change their minds sometimes, especially when the issue changes from a hypothetical to an actual case. Stare decisis is important and I would expect that justices would have great respect for it. But not absolute. Nobody wants a bad decision to be absolutely upheld.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Charles Austin

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #787 on: June 25, 2022, 08:24:13 AM »
Pastor Fienen writes:
People do change their minds sometimes, especially when the issue changes from a hypothetical to an actual case.

I comment:
And people also speak one way when seeking a job, schmoozing and assuring in order to win support, while concealing what they actually intend to do. Pre-confirmation discussions concerning Roe v. Wade were not "hypothetical." The two senators believe they were conned. They should have stuck to their original intent not to cast an affirmative vote on the confirmation.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

David Garner

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #788 on: June 25, 2022, 08:27:14 AM »
Can I get some help? I need some clarification. For about 15 year or so, Charles has said that the Supreme Court has spoken, it's the Law of the Land, deal with it. But now the Supreme Court has spoken and he doesn't seem to be supportive. How can this be?

Dealing with it is hard sometimes.

Just enjoy listening to him sing:

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Charles Austin

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #789 on: June 25, 2022, 08:39:23 AM »
Pastor Hannah posts an interesting commentary from a long-time pro-life activist.
I do not like the "Hooray! We won! Now we are in charge!" attitude of some pro-lifers. That is not true and the suggestion that "Now we're gonna get at gay marriage and contraception" is very misguided. (Coming from a Supreme Court justice it is downright scary.)
   Neither do I like the apocalyptic howls of some pro-choice people. Some of those noises mask hostilities to religious faith, along with some abhorrently amoral attitudes.
   We also need to avoid placing our concern for all of religious faith, patriotism, civil law, morality, team spirit and life itself on one issue.
   There are threats about us that go beyond opposing abortion or defending the right to have one. Some of these, I fear, are more destructive and if we rip each other up on this one issue, the others may do us in.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #790 on: June 25, 2022, 08:41:02 AM »
That NYT article shows how much the balance of power has tilted to the judicial branch. And the importance of precedent is so skewed. It's been said before but...Plessy v. Ferguson.  In 2018 there was no Dobbs case to consider. I think the nominees were telling the truth. At that time there was no case to be considered and that there is some weight given to what has been decided before. But times do change.

And, as others have more eloquently written, abortion has not been outlawed. It was never in the constitution and things that are not in the constitution are left to the states to decide. I believe that is the beauty of the Tenth Amendment. 

And lastly, why trust the word of Sen. Collins? What makes her more trustworthy than anyone else. Could she be misremembering? Carrie Severino and Mollie Hemingway wrote "Justice on Trial" about the joke that was the Kavanaugh hearings. No senator looks good in that book
 Sen. Collins is a career politician, 'nuff said.

Jeremy

 

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #791 on: June 25, 2022, 08:41:30 AM »
Pastor Hannah posts an interesting commentary from a long-time pro-life activist.
I do not like the "Hooray! We won! Now we are in charge!" attitude of some pro-lifers. That is not true and the suggestion that "Now we're gonna get at gay marriage and contraception" is very misguided. (Coming from a Supreme Court justice it is downright scary.)
   Neither do I like the apocalyptic howls of some pro-choice people. Some of those noises mask hostilities to religious faith, along with some abhorrently amoral attitudes.
   We also need to avoid placing our concern for all of religious faith, patriotism, civil law, morality, team spirit and life itself on one issue.
   There are threats about us that go beyond opposing abortion or defending the right to have one. Some of these, I fear, are more destructive and if we rip each other up on this one issue, the others may do us in.

Then stop whining.
Don Kirchner

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Matt Hummel

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #792 on: June 25, 2022, 09:01:17 AM »
From today’s NY Times
Senators say Kavanaugh gave private assurances that he felt Roe should stand
WASHINGTON — During a two-hour meeting in her Senate office with the Supreme Court nominee Brett M. Kavanaugh on Aug. 21, 2018, Senator Susan Collins of Maine pressed him hard on why she should trust him not to overturn Roe v. Wade if she backed his confirmation.
   Judge Kavanaugh worked vigorously to reassure her that he was no threat to the landmark abortion rights ruling.
   “Start with my record, my respect for precedent, my belief that it is rooted in the Constitution, and my commitment and its importance to the rule of law,” he said, according to contemporaneous notes kept by multiple staff members in the meeting. “I understand precedent and I understand the importance of overturning it.”
   “Roe is 45 years old, it has been reaffirmed many times, lots of people care about it a great deal, and I’ve tried to demonstrate I understand real-world consequences,” he continued, according to the notes, adding: “I am a don’t-rock-the-boat kind of judge. I believe in stability and in the Team of Nine.”
   Persuaded, Ms. Collins, a Republican, gave a detailed speech a few weeks later laying out her rationale for backing the future justice that cited his stated commitment to precedent on Roe, helping clinch his confirmation after a bitter fight. On Friday, Justice Kavanaugh joined the majority in overturning the decision he told Ms. Collins he would protect.
   His seeming turnabout in the case on Friday prompted Ms. Collins and another senator, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, who gave Justice Kavanaugh crucial votes for his narrow confirmation to vent their anger, saying they felt their trust had been abused. Their indignation was echoed across the Capitol by lawmakers who said the court’s decision on Friday helped drain what was left of any credibility Supreme Court nominees have in their confirmation hearings.
   “I feel misled,” Ms. Collins said in an interview, adding that the decision was in stark contrast to the assurances she had received privately from Justice Kavanaugh, who had made similar, if less exhaustive, pronouncements at his public hearing.
   Mr. Manchin, the only Democrat to vote for Justice Kavanaugh, also expressed similar sentiments about Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, who made his own strong statements about adhering to precedent during his confirmation in 2017.
   “I trusted Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh when they testified under oath that they also believed Roe v. Wade was settled legal precedent and I am alarmed they chose to reject the stability the ruling has provided for two generations of Americans,” said Mr. Manchin, who himself is anti-abortion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/roe-kavanaugh-collins-notes.html

Any candidate for a position on SCOTUS  who can say this is absolutely how I would vote is lying or doesn’t quite get the task. Any grownup American who thinks a SCOTUS candidate can make ironclad guarantees about how they will vote before they have all the facts before them is an idiot.
Matt Hummel


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Matt Hummel

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Matt Hummel

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Re: Roe v. Wade overturned?
« Reply #794 on: June 25, 2022, 09:08:54 AM »



Jesus said long before Pilate had any say in it, that he MUST suffer, die, and be raised. Pilate's choice to allow the crucifixion was like Mary's choice about becoming pregnant.

Ahh.   Ummmh. Wow. Are you really sure you want to make that analogy?
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien