Author Topic: Old Testament Question  (Read 1256 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2022, 07:45:43 PM »
[Satan] did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.
::)

Good grief!! 
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2022, 08:18:22 PM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Sagan?  Carl Sagan?  Seriously, you don't see Satan's temptations as evil?  Not even bowing down and worshipping Satan? 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2022, 08:35:09 PM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Sagan?  Carl Sagan?  Seriously, you don't see Satan's temptations as evil?  Not even bowing down and worshipping Satan?


Worshiping Satan isn't quite the same kind of evil as murder, theft, rape, promiscuity, kidnapping, torture, Considering what Russian troops are doing to Ukrainians, bowing down before a false god seems pretty tame.


I have and continue to argue that the greatest threat to Christianity is not evil, but good. Doing good for the wrong reasons. Trusting one's goodness for salvation. Being content with "this is good enough."
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 08:56:25 PM »
You're simply babbling, Brian, making no sense.

Actually, your #5 post was rational and quite informative. I was about to thank you, and then you went contrarian without any rational basis, and now you're writing nonsense. You can't seem to hold it together.   ::)
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2022, 09:02:34 PM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Sagan?  Carl Sagan?  Seriously, you don't see Satan's temptations as evil?  Not even bowing down and worshipping Satan?


Worshiping Satan isn't quite the same kind of evil as murder, theft, rape, promiscuity, kidnapping, torture, Considering what Russian troops are doing to Ukrainians, bowing down before a false god seems pretty tame.


I have and continue to argue that the greatest threat to Christianity is not evil, but good. Doing good for the wrong reasons. Trusting one's goodness for salvation. Being content with "this is good enough."

Are you really suggesting that murder, theft, rape, etc are WORSE than worshipping Satan?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2022, 10:08:27 PM »
Deists only care about the second table of the Law. But by the same token, if a conservative had said murder and rape were worse than worshipping Satan, Brian would have corrected him by pointing out that sin is sin and we ought not offer gradations of sinfulness.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2022, 02:12:04 AM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Sagan?  Carl Sagan?  Seriously, you don't see Satan's temptations as evil?  Not even bowing down and worshipping Satan?


Worshiping Satan isn't quite the same kind of evil as murder, theft, rape, promiscuity, kidnapping, torture, Considering what Russian troops are doing to Ukrainians, bowing down before a false god seems pretty tame.


I have and continue to argue that the greatest threat to Christianity is not evil, but good. Doing good for the wrong reasons. Trusting one's goodness for salvation. Being content with "this is good enough."

Are you really suggesting that murder, theft, rape, etc are WORSE than worshipping Satan?


Most certainly it is worse for the victims and their families. Should a neighbor be a Satan worshiper, it's likely to have no affect on my life. I may not even know their names let alone their worship practices. Should my neighbor murder me, or rob me, or rape me, those sins have a great affect on me and my family.


I also note that Satan's tests were about doing good things: to feed the hungry (which Jesus will do later); trust God and the scriptures (Gideon did that with good results.) Take his rightful place as head of all the kingdoms. The problem with these good things is that they are coming at the word of Satan, not the word of God.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2022, 08:27:47 AM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Carl Sagan?  Billions and billions of galaxies - all good.

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 10:21:12 AM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.
The temptation was not so much creating bread, reigning as King of kings, or doing other miraculous signs and wonders, but to do them in ways contrary to His Father's command. Jesus would miraculously create bread to feed thousands but here Satan tempted Jesus to create bread for Himself. The Spirit had led Him into the wilderness and fasting, Satan tempted Jesus to reject what the Father had commanded and take care of Himself.


God's road for Jesus to reign as King of kings and Lord of Lords was through the cross, Satan tempted Jesus to avoid the cross and achieve the goal by worshipping Satan. The signs and wonders that Jesus would perform to point to His divinity was to be in service to His mission to die for us, not as a way to avoid the cross.


I have come to see these temptations of Jesus as all attempts to get Jesus to reject the cross. What Satan wanted Jesus to do was not all that different from what He did do, except in ways that avoided the cross and thus would have ultimately defeated His mission. Thus, it was a subtle temptation and, as is often the case with temptation, readily able to be rationalized.


He returned to this temptation in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus pleaded with His Father for a Plan B that avoided the cross. But the Father did not have a Plan B that would allow Jesus to avoid the cross. He finally overcame the temptation to refuse the cross, accepted the Father's mission, and achieved our salvation. This was highlighted then by the taunt of the Jewish leaders to Jesus on the cross, "He saved others, Himself He could not save!" Exactly!
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2022, 10:39:56 AM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.

Sagan?  Carl Sagan?  Seriously, you don't see Satan's temptations as evil?  Not even bowing down and worshipping Satan?


Worshiping Satan isn't quite the same kind of evil as murder, theft, rape, promiscuity, kidnapping, torture, Considering what Russian troops are doing to Ukrainians, bowing down before a false god seems pretty tame.


I have and continue to argue that the greatest threat to Christianity is not evil, but good. Doing good for the wrong reasons. Trusting one's goodness for salvation. Being content with "this is good enough."

Are you really suggesting that murder, theft, rape, etc are WORSE than worshipping Satan?


Most certainly it is worse for the victims and their families. Should a neighbor be a Satan worshiper, it's likely to have no affect on my life. I may not even know their names let alone their worship practices. Should my neighbor murder me, or rob me, or rape me, those sins have a great affect on me and my family.


I also note that Satan's tests were about doing good things: to feed the hungry (which Jesus will do later); trust God and the scriptures (Gideon did that with good results.) Take his rightful place as head of all the kingdoms. The problem with these good things is that they are coming at the word of Satan, not the word of God.

1. Well, someone who dings my car's door at Walmart is worse for me than your car being stolen with your grandchildren in the back seat.  But I would not say that a door ding is worse than grand theft auto and kidnapping.

2. Of course Satan uses good things in his tempting.  That's kind of a "duh" suggestion.  It is not really tempting if it is not appealing/good.  I am not tempted by broccoli; I am tempted by brownies.  But Satan's temptations (using something good, or at least having the appearance of good) is to pervert/misuse the good gift of God.  So, for example, sex is good and a blessing within marriage; Satan tempts us to pervert it by misusing it outside of marriage.

RDPreus

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2022, 11:43:32 AM »
Worshipping Satan entails serving and loving oneself instead of the neighbor.  Satan's temptations of Christ were appeals to Christ's self-interest.  But Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve.  His vicarious obedience all the way to the death of the cross was loving God above all things and his neighbor as himself.  Rape, murder, robbery, and other kinds of violence are antithetical to love for neighbor.  They are works of Satan.  Worshipping Satan is not just a formal allegiance to him.  It may not even acknowledge his existence.  It is embracing hatred over love and diminishing our neighbor to benefit ourselves.   

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2022, 11:47:58 AM »
I think it's better to translate πειράζω in that context with "tested". James 1:13 says that God πειράζω no one, but quite often in the OT (LXX) God tested (πειράζω) his people, e.g., Gen 22:1 when God tested Abram.

Wow! You've managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph!


It takes talent. I was just presenting what’s in Scriptures.

Quote
Given the context, I agree with nearly all the translators and commentators who translate the Greek as "tempted."


Satan’s goal was to have Jesus sin. We can call that temptation. What would that sin be? Later Jesus will miraculously create bread to feed thousands. Later Jesus will float on the water. Later, we believe Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the kingdoms of the world. Sagan did not ask Jesus to do anything evil, but things similar to what Jesus will do in the future.
The temptation was not so much creating bread, reigning as King of kings, or doing other miraculous signs and wonders, but to do them in ways contrary to His Father's command. Jesus would miraculously create bread to feed thousands but here Satan tempted Jesus to create bread for Himself. The Spirit had led Him into the wilderness and fasting, Satan tempted Jesus to reject what the Father had commanded and take care of Himself.


God's road for Jesus to reign as King of kings and Lord of Lords was through the cross, Satan tempted Jesus to avoid the cross and achieve the goal by worshipping Satan. The signs and wonders that Jesus would perform to point to His divinity was to be in service to His mission to die for us, not as a way to avoid the cross.


I have come to see these temptations of Jesus as all attempts to get Jesus to reject the cross. What Satan wanted Jesus to do was not all that different from what He did do, except in ways that avoided the cross and thus would have ultimately defeated His mission. Thus, it was a subtle temptation and, as is often the case with temptation, readily able to be rationalized.


He returned to this temptation in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus pleaded with His Father for a Plan B that avoided the cross. But the Father did not have a Plan B that would allow Jesus to avoid the cross. He finally overcame the temptation to refuse the cross, accepted the Father's mission, and achieved our salvation. This was highlighted then by the taunt of the Jewish leaders to Jesus on the cross, "He saved others, Himself He could not save!" Exactly!


I totally agree. The temptation to sin was not about doing something evil and harmful to others, but to follow a (good) path that was contrary to the Father's wishes.


The temptation/testing to avoid the cross will come up again when Peter seeks to prevent Jesus from following that path way. ("Get behind me, Satan.) Those who oppose Jesus and the Father's will do not have to be Evil Powers, but sometimes even from close friends. Also, as you mentioned, the desires of the crowd for Jesus to come down from the cross - like any good superhero should do.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2022, 11:53:09 AM »
1. Well, someone who dings my car's door at Walmart is worse for me than your car being stolen with your grandchildren in the back seat.  But I would not say that a door ding is worse than grand theft auto and kidnapping.


The courts do determine which sins and evils are worse than others.

Quote
2. Of course Satan uses good things in his tempting.  That's kind of a "duh" suggestion.  It is not really tempting if it is not appealing/good.  I am not tempted by broccoli; I am tempted by brownies.  But Satan's temptations (using something good, or at least having the appearance of good) is to pervert/misuse the good gift of God.  So, for example, sex is good and a blessing within marriage; Satan tempts us to pervert it by misusing it outside of marriage.


And yet, nearly all testimonies I've heard stress all the bad things one was doing before being caught in God's love through Jesus that they now have stopped doing. (They usually talk about deciding to follow Jesus, or finding Jesus.) We often talk about confessing the bad things we thought, said, and did. We seldom follow Paul's example of confessing what a righteous and obedient life I was living before being encountered by Christ - and giving up all that goodness.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Old Testament Question
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2022, 11:57:16 AM »
Worshipping Satan entails serving and loving oneself instead of the neighbor.  Satan's temptations of Christ were appeals to Christ's self-interest.  But Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve.  His vicarious obedience all the way to the death of the cross was loving God above all things and his neighbor as himself.  Rape, murder, robbery, and other kinds of violence are antithetical to love for neighbor.  They are works of Satan.  Worshipping Satan is not just a formal allegiance to him.  It may not even acknowledge his existence.  It is embracing hatred over love and diminishing our neighbor to benefit ourselves.   


I agree. In fact, in recent weeks I've been thinking that perhaps the most significant fruit in Christian lives is how we show love towards our enemies - those who disagree with us - those who have different views and values than us - those who follow a different political party - those who espouse a different religion. Anyone, even selfish folks can show love for friends (because of what they can get out of the friendship). Loving enemies, expecting that we will get nothing in return, is more of the Christ-like love we are to exhibit.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]