Author Topic: Concordia University Chicago  (Read 2134 times)

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1587
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2022, 12:43:24 PM »
The only problem with selling the IC is that the LCMS does not own the land, only the building. The land is leased and and the value in an age of working from home tenuous at best.

I'm thinking here about the costs of keeping properties open. Whatever it costs to maintain the IC and lease the land should be multiplied by 5 and by ten to see the long term costs of holding on. The same needs to be done for under used properties throughout the synod in case a consolidation plan would save money.

Although sale might seem small in the current environment, the results of the sale plus the savings from reduced costs might be substantial. I'm sure someone is crunching the numbers this way to get the big picture.
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13530
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2022, 01:00:29 PM »
"CUC has the only undergraduate program for deaconess studies."

Doesn't Valpo still have a deaconess program? We could use it.

Peace, JOHN

Their deaconess program is quite different than ours, and is governed by a much different theological direction. It would not work for the LCMS. I believe the deaconess program at CUC was started many years ago for that reason.

I've been curious as to why the LCMS then, since not aligned with Valpo, has chosen to have three deaconess programs, at CUS, CTSFW and St. Louis.  Why would three be needed?

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19820
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2022, 01:04:55 PM »
I don’t think it is a question of need. More like opportunity. You don’t need a separate brick and mortar institution. It amounts to offering a major where related classes are already being taught. If you’re already offering theology classes and preparing church workers, why not have a Deaconess program?

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13530
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2022, 01:08:02 PM »
I don’t think it is a question of need. More like opportunity. You don’t need a separate brick and mortar institution. It amounts to offering a major where related classes are already being taught. If you’re already offering theology classes and preparing church workers, why not have a Deaconess program?

My question was why have three?  With one, or at most two, you would have a nice cohort.

Dave Benke

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2022, 01:13:56 PM »
"CUC has the only undergraduate program for deaconess studies."

Doesn't Valpo still have a deaconess program? We could use it.

Peace, JOHN

Their deaconess program is quite different than ours, and is governed by a much different theological direction. It would not work for the LCMS. I believe the deaconess program at CUC was started many years ago for that reason.

I've been curious as to why the LCMS then, since not aligned with Valpo, has chosen to have three deaconess programs, at CUS, CTSFW and St. Louis.  Why would three be needed?

Dave Benke

As I understand it, the programs at our seminaries were added later for those who already had an undergraduate degree, but now wanted to become a deaconess, either part-time in addition to their current career, or to make a full-time entry into church work.  They offer master's degree programs, which is appropriate for those who already have an undergraduate degree.

When my daughter was attending the Phoebe academy at CTSFW (while still in high school), which truly was the the key to inspiring her toward a calling as a deaconess, there was a natural stress on the master's degree.  But looking at what CUC offered, it made more sense since she was pursuing her first degree, to go there and then pursue a master's degree in another field at a later date (e.g. counseling).  I think that all the programs serve a purpose.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1587
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2022, 01:19:56 PM »
I hear good things about the CTSFW program.  :)
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19820
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2022, 01:24:19 PM »
I don’t think it is a question of need. More like opportunity. You don’t need a separate brick and mortar institution. It amounts to offering a major where related classes are already being taught. If you’re already offering theology classes and preparing church workers, why not have a Deaconess program?

My question was why have three?  With one, or at most two, you would have a nice cohort.

Dave Benke
For the same reason there are education majors toward becoming a rostered LCMS teacher in three or more places. Many deaconess students might already be at these sites for school or be wives of seminarians or whatever. If you’re teaching the classes anyway, why not offer the program? It isn’t as though the synod said, “Two locations lack the capacity to handle the crush of deaconess students. We need three.” Rather, some women who wanted to be deaconesses probably said, “We’re here and would like these classes to count toward becoming a deaconess. Can you make that happen?” And someone said, “Sure.”

Mark_Hofman

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2022, 02:17:03 PM »
The only problem with selling the IC is that the LCMS does not own the land, only the building. The land is leased and and the value in an age of working from home tenuous at best.

I'm thinking here about the costs of keeping properties open. Whatever it costs to maintain the IC and lease the land should be multiplied by 5 and by ten to see the long term costs of holding on. The same needs to be done for under used properties throughout the synod in case a consolidation plan would save money.

Although sale might seem small in the current environment, the results of the sale plus the savings from reduced costs might be substantial. I'm sure someone is crunching the numbers this way to get the big picture.


In the process of closing down the I.C. and selling the building, perhaps some thought and care might also be shown to what seems to be the invisible people serving the LCMS Foundation and Concordia Plan Services, who would be left vocationally homeless.  Together those two entities occupy as much if not more square footage in the International Center as the "corporate" side of the LCMS.  Oh, and Worldwide KFUO too since it was relocated off of the seminary campus due to irreparable facilities.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2022, 02:31:14 PM »
I hear good things about the CTSFW program.  :)

Yeah, I hear that too.  And I am not related to its president or the associate director of its deaconess program. :)

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2022, 02:38:39 PM »
This link was provided at LutherQuest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aS2Jvp_lwU  I have to assume that Dr. Stapleton's views and teaching have not changed in the last week or so.  So, why was he hired to teach at CUC with this kind of approach (that CUC, or at least its administration, is racist)?

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2022, 03:14:09 PM »
This link was provided at LutherQuest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aS2Jvp_lwU  I have to assume that Dr. Stapleton's views and teaching have not changed in the last week or so.  So, why was he hired to teach at CUC with this kind of approach (that CUC, or at least its administration, is racist)?

"False education tells people what is truth...and tells people who is right and who is wrong..."  Huh?  What is the purpose of a Christian university if not to first and foremost tell them of the truth of Holy Scripture and God's revelation of Himself in Christ?  Plato is fine, but I would think that we would take our guidance from the scriptures before we would from a Greek philosopher.

"...Tells people that whites are better than others....unfortunately that is the education you will receive from Concordia University Chicago..."  Really?  Hmm.... Not what I've heard.

I don't know Dr. Stapleton, but now that I've seen him in action, I would be concerned about him as a professor at CUC. He doesn't seem at all supportive of the institution as a distinctly Christian university.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5615
    • View Profile
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2022, 03:43:50 PM »
This link was provided at LutherQuest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aS2Jvp_lwU  I have to assume that Dr. Stapleton's views and teaching have not changed in the last week or so.  So, why was he hired to teach at CUC with this kind of approach (that CUC, or at least its administration, is racist)?
The date on that <2 minute clip was two days ago and appears to represent a response to his having been barred from CUC's campus. It is altogether a product of that context. Apart from his introduction of Plato, what he says is pretty much what he said from the ground on the arrest video. I can't judge his interpretation of Plato or his application of it to CUC.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1587
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2022, 04:17:24 PM »
The only problem with selling the IC is that the LCMS does not own the land, only the building. The land is leased and and the value in an age of working from home tenuous at best.

I'm thinking here about the costs of keeping properties open. Whatever it costs to maintain the IC and lease the land should be multiplied by 5 and by ten to see the long term costs of holding on. The same needs to be done for under used properties throughout the synod in case a consolidation plan would save money.

Although sale might seem small in the current environment, the results of the sale plus the savings from reduced costs might be substantial. I'm sure someone is crunching the numbers this way to get the big picture.


In the process of closing down the I.C. and selling the building, perhaps some thought and care might also be shown to what seems to be the invisible people serving the LCMS Foundation and Concordia Plan Services, who would be left vocationally homeless.  Together those two entities occupy as much if not more square footage in the International Center as the "corporate" side of the LCMS.  Oh, and Worldwide KFUO too since it was relocated off of the seminary campus due to irreparable facilities.

Mark, when I started working at CPH, the building was full. Then they started to downsize. By the time I left, there was nearly an entire floor empty and they were talking about downsizing again. They were trying to bring synod entities in to their open spaces to help consolidate expenses.

Experience tells me there is a lot of empty real estate maintained by the synod. Consolidating and downsizing seem like wise steps to take especially where one is paying leases, maintenance, and property taxes. I'm not talking about eliminating necessary functions or properties. I'm thinking of sustainability.
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13530
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2022, 05:11:34 PM »
The only problem with selling the IC is that the LCMS does not own the land, only the building. The land is leased and and the value in an age of working from home tenuous at best.

I'm thinking here about the costs of keeping properties open. Whatever it costs to maintain the IC and lease the land should be multiplied by 5 and by ten to see the long term costs of holding on. The same needs to be done for under used properties throughout the synod in case a consolidation plan would save money.

Although sale might seem small in the current environment, the results of the sale plus the savings from reduced costs might be substantial. I'm sure someone is crunching the numbers this way to get the big picture.


In the process of closing down the I.C. and selling the building, perhaps some thought and care might also be shown to what seems to be the invisible people serving the LCMS Foundation and Concordia Plan Services, who would be left vocationally homeless.  Together those two entities occupy as much if not more square footage in the International Center as the "corporate" side of the LCMS.  Oh, and Worldwide KFUO too since it was relocated off of the seminary campus due to irreparable facilities.

Mark, when I started working at CPH, the building was full. Then they started to downsize. By the time I left, there was nearly an entire floor empty and they were talking about downsizing again. They were trying to bring synod entities in to their open spaces to help consolidate expenses.

Experience tells me there is a lot of empty real estate maintained by the synod. Consolidating and downsizing seem like wise steps to take especially where one is paying leases, maintenance, and property taxes. I'm not talking about eliminating necessary functions or properties. I'm thinking of sustainability.

I think Mark is saying that the building is in full use.  Why move, then, especially since the ground underneath the property belongs to somebody else?

Stuff happens; things change.  My office for 24 years on the campus of Concordia Bronxville is now the property of Iona College.  It's a painful thought, but sic transit gloria mundi.
I've been to the New and Improved Atlantic District Offices which are right there on 38th and Broadway in New Yawk City.  Sweet suites and - who knew? - less costly than the Bronxville location, by a lot.  24 minutes by LIRR at peak hours from my stop.  I know this because my cardiologist has an office near the AD offices.

Having said "sic transit gloria mundi" I think selling colleges off is a really, really bad idea from the spiritual and belonging perspective of the LCMS folks in that part of the world.  At least that's our experience in the 3 districts around B'ville and all the way down the coast where Bronxville grads are often elected District President.  Other agendas may prevail.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

Mark Brown

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1318
  • Pastor, St. Mark Lutheran, West Henrietta, NY
    • View Profile
    • Saint Mark's Website
Re: Concordia University Chicago
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2022, 05:18:02 PM »
I think the Roman Catholic universities, by far a bigger tent church than Missouri, has a plan that is engaging from within the scholarly bounds of the church, but engages any and all who enter.  That to me is the model that is currently in place in CUWAA, and I think CUTexas, CUIrvine, CUSt. Paul and CUSeward. 

There is a distince pre-set toward the Lutheran Classical College model in those who are leaders and in elected/selected positions.  That's demonstrable.  At the same time, the larger number of congregations and pastors are graduates of and supporters of those five (six, really) schools. 

So - to take a contrary position for the sake of argument, why not have all the folks who support the Lutheran Classical model go for it, and those who support the model in place at the five Concordias go for it in their way.  The Concordias are viewed by most people as conservative Christian centers of education.  Let them choose NOT to be "theologically accredited" by the LCMS, become RSOs, with their own selected boards, and head into the future.

The Lutheran Classical group, which by the way is interviewing Professor Schulz again tonight on a podcast, already has a built-in recruitment base from those interested in that approach.  And they're highly organized throughout Synodical leadership including those elected and those on the ordained roster. 

In short, Mark Brown seems to want a "tear it down to the studs" approach (although I don't think we're allowed to use the word "stud" any more).  That's a ton - a literal ton - of negative energy.  Why go through that?

Dave Benke

I don't think you have to have a ton of negative energy.  Just let it all fail. You can probably speed that up by not feeding it money, i.e. instruct LCEF to stop lending.  You've already had Selma, Portland and Bronxville, the most advanced cases collapse inward.  Or let them go, but demand they release the name Concordia and not use the history i.e. rebrand.

But, the reason to go through it, if you want one, is a branding exercise.  I'm not against private institutions. Let a thousand flowers bloom as they say.  What I am against is any neither fish nor fowl institution that demands their "freedom" yet also demands access to LCEF and wants to present itself as "our institution."   If you want LCEF and the Imprimatur, accept the mission and correction.  That shouldn't be negative energy.  That would be the first positive move in a long time to make clear statements instead of just letting everyone do what is right in their own eyes.