Author Topic: Abortion Statement Archived?  (Read 1018 times)

ghp

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2022, 07:33:04 PM »
Sweeping, hyper-active, ridiculous statements like that do not help the discussion. Maybe you intended to be ironic and sarcastic, but it doesn’t sound that way. Public education remains one of the best gifts this country has given us. You don’t like it, don’t go. Rear your children like the Amish if you wish.
I’ve got a characterization of your pro-life position, but if I were to post that here, you would want me thrown off the forum. Why should any of us “progressive“ want to discuss things here?
But newsflash. It would appear that our view is substantially supported by society in general. You can try to turn it around. Good luck with that.


Public education as we know it developed as a Progressive (John Dewey, Woodrow Wilson, et al) response to cut the family and, more importantly, the Church (RCC & Lutheran were the most impacted/at risk) out of raising & educating children. The goal was to indoctrinate children as "good citizens" with a primary concern being to break down some ties whilst creating and nurturing other, more socially/progressively acceptable ties.


Charles, you keep asking why any "progressive" would want to post here, but as a "conservative"/"fundamentalist"/"insert negative characterization from folks like you, Brian, John H., or Dave B. here" I can say that it's not always warm and fuzzy for me to post.

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DCharlton

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2022, 07:38:11 PM »
Sweeping, hyper-active, ridiculous statements like that do not help the discussion.

You should have begun that by saying, "Note to self."
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2022, 07:39:15 PM »
Sweeping, hyper-active, ridiculous statements like that do not help the discussion. Maybe you intended to be ironic and sarcastic, but it doesn’t sound that way. Public education remains one of the best gifts this country has given us. You don’t like it, don’t go. Rear your children like the Amish if you wish.
I’ve got a characterization of your pro-life position, but if I were to post that here, you would want me thrown off the forum. Why should any of us “progressive“ want to discuss things here?
But newsflash. It would appear that our view is substantially supported by society in general. You can try to turn it around. Good luck with that.


Public education as we know it developed as a Progressive (John Dewey, Woodrow Wilson, et al) response to cut the family and, more importantly, the Church (RCC & Lutheran were the most impacted/at risk) out of raising & educating children. The goal was to indoctrinate children as "good citizens" with a primary concern being to break down some ties whilst creating and nurturing other, more socially/progressively acceptable ties.


Charles, you keep asking why any "progressive" would want to post here, but as a "conservative"/"fundamentalist"/"insert negative characterization from folks like you, Brian, John H., or Dave B. here" I can say that it's not always warm and fuzzy for me to post.


And yet, Peter talks about a unifying culture which we got through public education. We learned the pledge in school. We learned our national anthem in school. We learned English and American history (at least some American history) in school.


Parents have always had a say in public schools. We elect our school boards. We can participate in PTA. We can volunteer.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2022, 10:40:25 PM »
Sweeping, hyper-active, ridiculous statements like that do not help the discussion. Maybe you intended to be ironic and sarcastic, but it doesn’t sound that way. Public education remains one of the best gifts this country has given us. You don’t like it, don’t go. Rear your children like the Amish if you wish.
I’ve got a characterization of your pro-life position, but if I were to post that here, you would want me thrown off the forum. Why should any of us “progressive“ want to discuss things here?
But newsflash. It would appear that our view is substantially supported by society in general. You can try to turn it around. Good luck with that.
Do you as pro-choice think that there should be any laws protecting unborn children from being aborted even in the kinds of situations that the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion considers morally unjustified? If so what legal restrictions?


Do you support public schools hiding their attempts to encourage children's gender transitions by hiding what they call the child in school, having special clothes for the child to change into at school, and the like? Do you agree with the National School Board Association asking the DOJ to invoke the Patroit Act and having the FBI investigate parents as domestic terrorists for speaking out at school board meetings?


I believe that most public school teachers and local administrators genuinely want the best for the children entrusted to their care. I question sometimes what public education has thought is best for children. I especially question the current fad of rushing children into irreversible gender transitions in the name of gender affirmation. I don't think that this has been studied nearly well enough to be rushing children into this, especially without parental consent or even knowledge. Reputable studies are suggesting much more caution. Some of the studies supporting these treatments have been seriously questioned for their methodology and data.


I guess I can understand why you might not want to discuss on a forum where the correct position (Progressive) isn't automatically and immediately accepted and contrary positions shown the door.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2022, 03:55:08 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Do you as pro-choice think that there should be any laws protecting unborn children from being aborted even in the kinds of situations that the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion considers morally unjustified? If so what legal restrictions?
Me:
Not the right questions.

Pastor Fienen:
Do you support public schools hiding their attempts to encourage children's gender transitions by hiding what they call the child in school, having special clothes for the child to change into at school, and the like? Do you agree with the National School Board Association asking the DOJ to invoke the Patroit Act and having the FBI investigate parents as domestic terrorists for speaking out at school board meetings?
Me:
Again, not the right questions. Yours are panicky scare-tactics fueled by the hard sides of extremely complex movements. Should parents have the right to tell their children certain things about sexuality? Of course they do. But for a very long time, gay and lesbian people did not have the civil rights to live according to their view of how one can be Christian.
   I do not think that criminalizing a certain view of sexuality or demonizing an approach to civil governance is the way to present the Gospel today.
   We like making our oh-so-narrow checklists of what constitute "Christian" government, ethics, morality or culture. Many years ago I accompanied some Lutherans from behind the "Iron Curtain" to visits with American churches. "Christian socialism"? A shocking term to Lutherans in Nebraska.
   I remember one question which took many forms.  "How can you be a true Christian in a Communist/Socialist country and not be in jail?"
   The cuius regio, eius religio of Augsburg was not so long ago. And I imagine our forbears asking "How can you be a true Christian in a country ruled by a Roman Catholic, or a Calvinist."

Pastor Fienen:
I believe that most public school teachers and local administrators genuinely want the best for the children entrusted to their care. I question sometimes what public education has thought is best for children. I especially question the current fad of rushing children into irreversible gender transitions in the name of gender affirmation. I don't think that this has been studied nearly well enough to be rushing children into this, especially without parental consent or even knowledge. Reputable studies are suggesting much more caution. Some of the studies supporting these treatments have been seriously questioned for their methodology and data.
Me:
Yes. We have much more to learn. But can you accept as fellow Christians, perhaps even in your own parish or denomination whose views of gender are not yours? I wonder.

Pastor Fienen:
I guess I can understand why you might not want to discuss on a forum where the correct position (Progressive) isn't automatically and immediately accepted and contrary positions shown the door.
Me:
Again, please back off the overstatements. I've had a number of parishioners who opposed the ELCA's 2009 statement. None of them were "shown the door."
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 04:03:36 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2022, 06:34:57 AM »
"But newsflash. It would appear that our view is substantially supported by society in general. You can try to turn it around. Good luck with that."

Charles seems to fetishize "majority opinion."

By his logic therefore National Socialist antisemitism in all its forms  is OK since a majority of Germans were down with the program.

Also, owning black people as slaves, since to be honest a majority of Americans until the Civil War were not abolitionist in their thinking.

And I wonder how his Arian christology is working out, since a lot of historians say that at one point, even after Nicea, the majority of Christians were Arian.

The fact that a majority of Americans think or feel a certain way means nothing more than that they think or feel that way. Is the way they think or feel correct?
Matt Hummel


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peter_speckhard

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2022, 08:18:35 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Do you as pro-choice think that there should be any laws protecting unborn children from being aborted even in the kinds of situations that the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion considers morally unjustified? If so what legal restrictions?
Me:
Not the right questions.

Pastor Fienen:
Do you support public schools hiding their attempts to encourage children's gender transitions by hiding what they call the child in school, having special clothes for the child to change into at school, and the like? Do you agree with the National School Board Association asking the DOJ to invoke the Patroit Act and having the FBI investigate parents as domestic terrorists for speaking out at school board meetings?
Me:
Again, not the right questions. Yours are panicky scare-tactics fueled by the hard sides of extremely complex movements. Should parents have the right to tell their children certain things about sexuality? Of course they do. But for a very long time, gay and lesbian people did not have the civil rights to live according to their view of how one can be Christian.
   I do not think that criminalizing a certain view of sexuality or demonizing an approach to civil governance is the way to present the Gospel today.
   We like making our oh-so-narrow checklists of what constitute "Christian" government, ethics, morality or culture. Many years ago I accompanied some Lutherans from behind the "Iron Curtain" to visits with American churches. "Christian socialism"? A shocking term to Lutherans in Nebraska.
   I remember one question which took many forms.  "How can you be a true Christian in a Communist/Socialist country and not be in jail?"
   The cuius regio, eius religio of Augsburg was not so long ago. And I imagine our forbears asking "How can you be a true Christian in a country ruled by a Roman Catholic, or a Calvinist."

Pastor Fienen:
I believe that most public school teachers and local administrators genuinely want the best for the children entrusted to their care. I question sometimes what public education has thought is best for children. I especially question the current fad of rushing children into irreversible gender transitions in the name of gender affirmation. I don't think that this has been studied nearly well enough to be rushing children into this, especially without parental consent or even knowledge. Reputable studies are suggesting much more caution. Some of the studies supporting these treatments have been seriously questioned for their methodology and data.
Me:
Yes. We have much more to learn. But can you accept as fellow Christians, perhaps even in your own parish or denomination whose views of gender are not yours? I wonder.

Pastor Fienen:
I guess I can understand why you might not want to discuss on a forum where the correct position (Progressive) isn't automatically and immediately accepted and contrary positions shown the door.
Me:
Again, please back off the overstatements. I've had a number of parishioners who opposed the ELCA's 2009 statement. None of them were "shown the door."
Please don't pretend you've even engaged the post when all you've done is refuse the answer hard questions claiming people shouldn't be asking them. Dan didn't ask the wrong questions. He asked the right questions that have answers they point out your hypocrisy.

Charles Austin

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2022, 09:46:39 AM »
Dad says “we’re headed off to a beach vacation.“
Kid says “shall I pack the sleds and the skis?“
Wrong questions.

Dad says “We’re headed off to a beach vacation. Junior, pack the  skis.”
Kid says “ you’re setting me up to look like an idiot, right?“
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Abortion Statement Archived?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2022, 11:05:13 AM »
Since the initial question has been answered and the conversation has degenerated, thread closed.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS