Author Topic: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version  (Read 3336 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2022, 09:32:49 AM »
I, too, just want to chime in and say this thread is extremely interesting. Please keep it up.

Jim Butler

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2022, 09:33:02 AM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.

The NIV, ESV, CSB, and NASB all translate the word as money. I'm wondering if the footnote is necessary.
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2022, 10:10:55 AM »
Just a small for instance that can and be and is argued vociferously.  In Psalm One, "blessed is the man" or "blessed is the one" or "blessed are those" (etc.) is often argued on the basis of the Hebrew text which uses man and in the male sense the psalm can be applied strongly to a Messianic reading that sees the man as Christ-- hopefully I have stated that correctly.  But if one reads it in only a male sense or only as a single male to reference only Christ then the psalm might not, as clearly, speak to us as those who are called to walk the blessed path that God reveals and of course reveals uniquely and perfectly in Christ.  So it really should be a BOTH CHRIST AND US reading if one takes the second approach.   I like to avoid using man/men unless they are referring specifically to a male or several males and not including female reference.  On the face of it, I assume there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. We do not have to make English into Hebrew (or Greek).  So a reading that says "Blessed is the one" can refer to the Christian's path and the path of Christ.  Unless one uses a hyphen and says "One/one".   Christological references or messianic prophecy is not a question of capitalization in the Hebrew.  In another topic we have been talking about imprecatory psalms and how much they can only mean (in Bonhoeffer fashion) the prayers/songs of Christ or how much they can mean our prayer for justice, abatement and conquest of evil or just, even in some extreme fashion-- "Heaven, bash in the heads of infants!"  ...or some other measurement on the sliding scale of good applied to evil.  The psalter gets loved in its Psalm 23 tones but has many difficult verses throughout that are best chanted before God and each other allowing God to interpret them.   Ah, that's a thought... we struggle to interpret and translate that which is God's voice and with which he hears and understands perfectly without critical markings and footnotes as our feet walk the path, as sinners, in front of us.  --I know, "One point of view."
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2022, 12:34:02 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.

The NIV, ESV, CSB, and NASB all translate the word as money. I'm wondering if the footnote is necessary.

I don't think the translation "money" matters for the casual reader. It does obscure the historical setting, which is important for understanding the antiquity of the story. The account clearly pre-dates the use of coinage. Later in Genesis we'll learn that a slave costs twenty pieces of silver, which historically dates that account to the time of the patriarchs. So the translation may affect one's understanding of the Book of Genesis as history. I wonder, why not just use "silver," which I think even the casual reader would understand as a basic commodity of trade.

In either case, I'm enjoying the EHV, which is so far a good read.
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Jim Butler

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2022, 12:44:11 PM »
If you are interested in the background of the translation and the people who worked on it, you can go to https://wartburgproject.org
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2022, 12:51:13 PM »
"silver-used-as-money"...  hyphens used as word connectors...

I suppose for an archeologist or someone studying the history of money or cultural economics... for them the distinction between translations of terms is helpful.  But some words have nothing to do with theology or any salvic content of Scripture and should be treated as such.  In fact, do we know if the material cited was actual silver, what quality of silver by our present day standards or just something that looked like silver but really was another mineral (if there is such a thing comparable to fool's gold)? 

This topic of yours is interesting to follow because it does heighten our understanding of the products of translators. Thank you.  It would also be interesting to know what standards are used and subscribed to by translators and how well they followed them and any discussion or decision making that went on as the translation was accepted for print.


A basic difference in translations is how "literal," i.e., a "word-for-word" translation, e.g., "silver," "denarius" vs. "dynamic equivalence," or "thought-for-thought" or "meaning of phrases," e.g., "money" or "a day's wage." One seeks to convey the meaning of the source word. The other seeks to convey the meaning that word might have in our time in our language.
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Michael Slusser

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2022, 01:04:09 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.
RSV uses "money," "he that was bought with your money."

I'm curious about your statement that there was no coinage at the time that is referred to or at the time this account was written. When are you thinking about, and when did coinage begin?

Peace,
Michael
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2022, 07:08:04 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.
RSV uses "money," "he that was bought with your money."

I'm curious about your statement that there was no coinage at the time that is referred to or at the time this account was written. When are you thinking about, and when did coinage begin?

Peace,
Michael

Coinage shows up in the seventh century. I think it becomes common in the Persian Era. The Books of Moses present themselves as compiled in the fifteenth century and Genesis reaches back centuries earlier. Genesis 37:28 tells us that Joseph sold for twenty bits of silver, which was the going price from the patriarchal era according to ANE literature. (It's interesting that the EHV for Genesis 37:28 has "pieces of silver.")
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Chuck

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2022, 07:30:52 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.
RSV uses "money," "he that was bought with your money."

I'm curious about your statement that there was no coinage at the time that is referred to or at the time this account was written. When are you thinking about, and when did coinage begin?

Peace,
Michael

Coinage shows up in the seventh century. I think it becomes common in the Persian Era. The Books of Moses present themselves as compiled in the fifteenth century and Genesis reaches back centuries earlier. Genesis 37:28 tells us that Joseph sold for twenty bits of silver, which was the going price from the patriarchal era according to ANE literature. (It's interesting that the EHV for Genesis 37:28 has "pieces of silver.")


If you meant seventh century bc, that would be correct. The oldest coins that have been found are from Anatolian kingdom of Lydia, approximately 630 bc
Chuck Ruthroff

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Michael Slusser

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2022, 07:34:37 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.
RSV uses "money," "he that was bought with your money."

I'm curious about your statement that there was no coinage at the time that is referred to or at the time this account was written. When are you thinking about, and when did coinage begin?

Coinage shows up in the seventh century. I think it becomes common in the Persian Era. The Books of Moses present themselves as compiled in the fifteenth century and Genesis reaches back centuries earlier. Genesis 37:28 tells us that Joseph sold for twenty bits of silver, which was the going price from the patriarchal era according to ANE literature. (It's interesting that the EHV for Genesis 37:28 has "pieces of silver.")
RSV: twenty shekels of silver. Whwn did the shekel come into use?

Peace,
Michael
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2022, 09:58:35 PM »
Genesis 17:12
"money." The note points out this is literally silver, which is important to the cultural setting. There was no coinage at this early time, just bit-silver or gold. I wonder whether the translation "money" is necessary.
RSV uses "money," "he that was bought with your money."

I'm curious about your statement that there was no coinage at the time that is referred to or at the time this account was written. When are you thinking about, and when did coinage begin?

Coinage shows up in the seventh century. I think it becomes common in the Persian Era. The Books of Moses present themselves as compiled in the fifteenth century and Genesis reaches back centuries earlier. Genesis 37:28 tells us that Joseph sold for twenty bits of silver, which was the going price from the patriarchal era according to ANE literature. (It's interesting that the EHV for Genesis 37:28 has "pieces of silver.")
RSV: twenty shekels of silver. Whwn did the shekel come into use?

Peace,
Michael

Shekel is mentioned in Genesis 23:15. In early texts, it is a weight for precious commodities rather than a coin. It becomes the name of a coin closer to NT times.

Cf. English "pound."
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2022, 08:15:10 AM »
Genesis 19:31
"normally takes place." The Hebrew literally has "according to the way of all the earth." Forms of "normal" are uncommon in Bible translations, I find. (E.g., KJV never uses it. It comes from late Latin.) Far more common are forms of "custom." One might translate here, "as is customary everywhere on earth." Or, more briefly and simply, "as happens everywhere on earth."
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2022, 09:09:26 AM »
Genesis 20:1
"lived as a resident alien." This is an expansive but clearer translation than ESV "sojourned," a verb that is rare in modern English. There is wordplay in the Hebrew. The verb has the same consonantal sounds as Gerar, perhaps a hint at ancient storytelling technique and memory device. The translation helps the reader understand why Abraham, a powerful sheikh, feels afraid of this regional king who perhaps has foreign culture (this is the sea people's region rather than the Semitic region of the Highlands).
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2022, 11:09:23 AM »
Genesis 20:1
"lived as a resident alien." This is an expansive but clearer translation than ESV "sojourned," a verb that is rare in modern English. There is wordplay in the Hebrew. The verb has the same consonantal sounds as Gerar, perhaps a hint at ancient storytelling technique and memory device. The translation helps the reader understand why Abraham, a powerful sheikh, feels afraid of this regional king who perhaps has foreign culture (this is the sea people's region rather than the Semitic region of the Highlands).

גּוּר
Is ai difficult word to translate. Its definition seems to be: to dwell for a definite or indefinite time in a place that is not one's place of birth or origin. It can refer to foreigners living in the land, e.g., Israel living in Egypt; or being guests in a house. "To sojourn," might be the best English word to express this idea. Otherwise, phrases are used for the verb: "to live as an alien," "to be an immigrant." The noun, גֵּר, gets translated as "sojourner," "alien," "immigrant," "resident alien," "stranger."

Such people also didn't have quite the same rights or status as the native Israelites. They are often put in the same category as orphans, widows, and sometimes the poor (Zechariah 7:10). Although they are to be treated as equals.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Rahn

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Re: Reading the Evangelical Heritage Version
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2022, 01:57:02 PM »
Genesis 20:1
"lived as a resident alien." This is an expansive but clearer translation than ESV "sojourned," a verb that is rare in modern English. There is wordplay in the Hebrew. The verb has the same consonantal sounds as Gerar, perhaps a hint at ancient storytelling technique and memory device. The translation helps the reader understand why Abraham, a powerful sheikh, feels afraid of this regional king who perhaps has foreign culture (this is the sea people's region rather than the Semitic region of the Highlands).

גּוּר
Is ai difficult word to translate. Its definition seems to be: to dwell for a definite or indefinite time in a place that is not one's place of birth or origin. It can refer to foreigners living in the land, e.g., Israel living in Egypt; or being guests in a house. "To sojourn," might be the best English word to express this idea. Otherwise, phrases are used for the verb: "to live as an alien," "to be an immigrant." The noun, גֵּר, gets translated as "sojourner," "alien," "immigrant," "resident alien," "stranger."

Such people also didn't have quite the same rights or status as the native Israelites. They are often put in the same category as orphans, widows, and sometimes the poor (Zechariah 7:10). Although they are to be treated as equals.

These resident aliens were charged interest on monetary transactions as opposed to fellow Israelites.  It was forbidden to charge interest on transactions with your own kin.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 01:59:11 PM by George Rahn »