Author Topic: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders  (Read 5151 times)

Deb_H.

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2007, 12:29:05 AM »
Well, if the spouse were making $500,000 and tithing to the church, they might consider that the good deed was enough to offset the bad occupation. Well, it could happen :)

And it probably does happen.  The smiley face is a nice touch, but it is a little scary just how true your statement might be.

What if it was just a regular congregation member doing these things and not the pastor's spouse/partner (hate writing that).

What about the addicted gambler who tithes from their winnings?
What if someone robs a bank and tithes from that "windfall?"   
Yikes.
I would hope eventually someone would look at what the spouses are doing and say something to someone about it, if only (!) to point out the sin and seek repentance so that they can be forgiven and amend their life .

 That is what the church is about, after all  ... right?

Debbie

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2007, 01:01:19 AM »

What about the addicted gambler who tithes from their winnings?
What if someone robs a bank and tithes from that "windfall?"
Yikes.
More likely, someone could win the lottery and give big bucks to the congregation. If the congregation accepts it, are the making a statement in support of the lottery?

Quote
I would hope eventually someone would look at what the spouses are doing and say something to someone about it, if only (!) to point out the sin and seek repentance so that they can be forgiven and amend their life.

This discussion has just been based on hearsay. I would certainly hope that before anyone would take action in a congregation, they had the facts straight.

Quote
That is what the church is about, after all  ... right?
Making money every way possible? ;)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2007, 01:29:20 AM »
I have also heard from people how having a beard was part of an effective witness to Jesus Christ, whom, I might add, also had a beard. :))

To borrow a tactic from CA on the way to AZ Brian: "How do you know Jesus had a beard?"
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

ptmccain

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2007, 07:38:52 AM »
Richard, of course Jesus had a beard. I've got lots of pictures of him that show him with a beard. There you go.

 :)

BeornBjornson

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2007, 10:20:09 AM »
Pastor Stoffregen,
That is an awful cynical view of our leadership, whether at churchwide, synodical, or congregational.  No amount of offering money can justify behavior that more than sinful crosses over into sheer evil.
Pastor Ken Kimball

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2007, 11:58:23 AM »
Richard, of course Jesus had a beard. I've got lots of pictures of him that show him with a beard. There you go. :)
That would have been my answer. We've agreed about something!!
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Deb_H.

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2007, 12:13:59 PM »
Quote
That is what the church is about, after all  ... right?
Making money every way possible? ;)

Sadly, too true in too many places.

But, lest anyone misunderstand me (and I hope you didn't, Brian):
The church is about one thing and one thing only -- forgiveness of sins.
All the other things that the church does can be done by non-Christians just as well, and is.

Debbie

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2007, 12:42:25 PM »
But, lest anyone misunderstand me (and I hope you didn't, Brian):
The church is about one thing and one thing only -- forgiveness of sins.
All the other things that the church does can be done by non-Christians just as well, and is.
I agree. I have often stated that the purpose of sermons is absolution.
In a workshop I did on worship, I drew a picture of a large box, I labeled "Worship", there was a stick figure (my artistic ability coming through) walking into the box, and one walking out of the box. I asked what do we expect to happen to that person in the box (meaning at worship)? My answer is "cleansed". Worship isn't about feeling good (although that can happen). It isn't about making people feel bad (although that can happen). It is about rooting out the sin in our lives and having it destroyed by the forgiving power of God through Christ.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Javen

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2007, 01:12:56 PM »
The hard fact is that the way glbtq persons present themselves is not very to the reality. The want to be seen as "normal" but promote and engage in activities which would be repulsive were they to come to light. They want the church's imprimatur of decency so they can undermine decency. The ELCA has allowed itself to be used. It will cause many to stumble. They might want to blur accountability, but there is One who will hold them accountable.

I'm surprised that no one else bristled at this horrible generalization.  Actually, I've spent just enough time on the ALPB Forum not to be surprised that nobody else had any problems with it.  In any event, I think it's hard to deduce a "hard fact" about all gay people from a single case.  The story about a gay pastor whose partner operates a porn site says a lot about that particular pastor, but I really don't think it's fair to use this story to generalize about all people in the LGBT community.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2007, 01:22:48 PM »
JAven writes (re a posting upstream about gays and lesbians):
I'm surprised that no one else bristled at this horrible generalization.

I comment:
I did, but there seems to be no point in bringing it up.

JAven writes:
The story about a gay pastor whose partner operates a porn site says a lot about that particular pastor, but I really don't think it's fair to use this story to generalize about all people in the LGBT community.

I comment:
And we don't even know if the story is true, and you are absolutely right, but among some folks here generalizations and stereotypes and anecdotal horror stories are the order of the day.




GoCubsGo!

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2007, 04:41:26 PM »
The hard fact is that the way glbtq persons present themselves is not very to the reality. The want to be seen as "normal" but promote and engage in activities which would be repulsive were they to come to light. They want the church's imprimatur of decency so they can undermine decency. The ELCA has allowed itself to be used. It will cause many to stumble. They might want to blur accountability, but there is One who will hold them accountable.


I am, regretably, not surprised to hear someone say this although I can't state forcefully enough that this is a stereotype.  For myself, I believe that homosexual activity is morally wrong and not God's intention for human sexuality.  But I also believe strongly that each and every person, whether they are GLBT or straight in their self understanding is a child of God and loved by him.  We are to reflect the love of God to others and to be respectful, honest, caring and compassionate.  I cannot say what will be the fate of those who engage in homosexual acts, just as I cannot say what my fate will be...Will God judge me to be unworthy of life with him or worthy?  I do not know.  I only hope for life with God through the merits of Jesus Christ.  All have sinned and to loosely qoute from Revelation "salvation belongs to God".  It is God's gift to give.

Some in the ELCA are not in favor of change our policies and standards.  Some simply want to be able to be what the church is called to be.. a body that calls all people to repentance and ammendment of life and proclaims the grace of God given through Christ our Lord.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2007, 09:33:08 PM »

I am, regretably, not surprised to hear someone say this although I can't state forcefully enough that this is a stereotype. For myself, I believe that homosexual activity is morally wrong and not God's intention for human sexuality. But I also believe strongly that each and every person, whether they are GLBT or straight in their self understanding is a child of God and loved by him. We are to reflect the love of God to others and to be respectful, honest, caring and compassionate. I cannot say what will be the fate of those who engage in homosexual acts, just as I cannot say what my fate will be...Will God judge me to be unworthy of life with him or worthy? I do not know. I only hope for life with God through the merits of Jesus Christ. All have sinned and to loosely qoute from Revelation "salvation belongs to God". It is God's gift to give.

Some in the ELCA are not in favor of change our policies and standards. Some simply want to be able to be what the church is called to be.. a body that calls all people to repentance and ammendment of life and proclaims the grace of God given through Christ our Lord.

Well said, and I agree. Generalizations are stinky, whether they are ascribed to "gays and lesbians" or to "fundamentalists" or to "Yale students" or to "people on the ALPB Forum."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dennis

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2007, 02:48:31 PM »
Just as a corrective - yes, there are pastors ordained with the exception from CCM. However, there they are not on a separate roster and are not limited by the ELCA as to where they can serve.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2007, 05:56:34 PM »
Just as a corrective - yes, there are pastors ordained with the exception from CCM. However, there they are not on a separate roster and are not limited by the ELCA as to where they can serve.
Do they not have to present an acceptable argument to their bishop for why they want the exception?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dennis

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Re: Full inclusion through grace and standards for leaders
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2007, 06:14:15 PM »
Yes, they do.  They have to make the request and usually write an essay/paper to explain why they believe they should be granted the exemption.  The bishop, in conversation with the Synod Council and Presiding Bishop, makes the decision, which is final.  Sometimes the exemptions are granted, sometimes not.    Also, I would say that there are certain synods where the exemption is almost guaranteed and other synods where the bishop is really opposed to granting any exceptions.  But, however the ordination occurs, all newly ordained are placed on the one clergy roster.