Author Topic: March for Life  (Read 1600 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2022, 03:36:01 PM »
Peter:
The pro-choice movement is external to the Church-- that is, it is not part of and is in fact contrary to the overall Christian mission. I believe in that regard I was simply restating what the Cardinal/Archbishop said in his statement.

Me:
Newsflash: the Cardinal/Archbishop does not speak for the whole church or the overall Christian mission.
If you think he does, then it’s time for you to get wet in the Tiber.
There is indeed a pro-choice movement within Lutheranism. But in your opinion anybody who has anything to do with it is no longer part of the church. And is a Judas.
You can make your apologia pro vita sua here as many times as you wish. I think it disqualifies you from holding a position as moderator in this inter-Lutheran forum.

So, in your view, only those who not pro-life ought be allowed as moderators?

James_Gale

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2022, 03:40:50 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all


I’d be very interested to see examples gleaned from your “cursory glance.”  I don’t think that I’ve seen any proposed anti-abortion law that does not include an exception where continuing a pregnancy would put the mother’s health (or life) at risk. I would be interested to see proposals that depart from this approach.  Some proposals do indeed omit rape and incest exceptions. 

DeHall1

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2022, 04:01:36 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all


I’d be very interested to see examples gleaned from your “cursory glance.”  I don’t think that I’ve seen any proposed anti-abortion law that does not include an exception where continuing a pregnancy would put the mother’s health (or life) at risk. I would be interested to see proposals that depart from this approach.  Some proposals do indeed omit rape and incest exceptions.

Even the Texas' "Heartbeat Act" includes an exception for when the mother is at risk of death or severe irreversible bodily harm.

Charles Austin

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2022, 04:32:32 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
So, in your view, only those who not pro-life ought be allowed as moderators?

Me:
Don’t be ridiculous. You know that’s not what I said. But one who refers to 2/3 of American Lutherans as  Judas, I wonder.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Matt Hummel

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2022, 08:29:47 PM »
Well- here is a time lapse of this year's march:
https://www.instagram.com/studentsforlife/reel/CZAswSoM8-p/?utm_medium=copy_link

This is what I wrote elsewhere:

This year, as for the previous 48, they gathered in Washington, DC for the largest ongoing human rights protest. This year may not have had the overwhelming numbers of some years. But despite Covid, despite a bitter cold, they came. Tens upon tens of thousands. And an interesting and positive spirit. The issue is transitioning now towards, "what will we do when Roe, the evil twin of Dredd Scott, is struck down?" And very scary for the Dems- the large, vocal presence secular, progressive PROLIFE organizations. Anyone framing this as the purview of Catholic and Evangelical antichoicers is gonna get whupped at the polls.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Matt Hummel

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2022, 08:43:38 PM »
Here's the thing: The rational pro-life position can be reached by folks who are not Theists.

But if you are a Christian, if you claim to believe the core tenets of the Faith like:
1. The full humanity of Jesus as explained in the Nicene Creed
2. Some basic Christian anthropology that sees human beings as created in the imago dei
3. Some understanding that the Mosaic injunction against murder being generally a good idea
amongst other things, I do not see how you can be Pro-Abortion. And please, for the love of honesty, don't lie about being pro choice but not pro abortion. Own your evil. Someone asked Peter if he was saying that the 2/3 of Lutherans who were Pro- Aborts were not Christian. I could be asked the same about the Pro-Abort Catholics. I can't say. But do I think they suck at it? Yeah. Big time.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Rob Morris

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2022, 09:07:04 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
So, in your view, only those who not pro-life ought be allowed as moderators?

Me:
Don’t be ridiculous. You know that’s not what I said. But one who refers to 2/3 of American Lutherans as  Judas, I wonder.

2/3 of American Lutherans are pro-choice? Citation, please.

Charles Austin

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2022, 09:22:04 PM »
Pastor Morris:
2/3 of American Lutherans are pro-choice? Citation, please.
Me:
Pew research, which, by the way, says nearly half of the Missouri Synod members polled believe abortion should be legal in most cases.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Rob Morris

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2022, 11:24:57 PM »
Pastor Morris:
2/3 of American Lutherans are pro-choice? Citation, please.
Me:
Pew research, which, by the way, says nearly half of the Missouri Synod members polled believe abortion should be legal in most cases.

Can you share a link, please? The pew research I found said 60% of Mainline Protestants, and only 37% of Evangelical Protestants, without further breakdown by denomination. https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2022, 11:36:28 PM »
Pro life- What does it mean? 

For many it is an absolute that means doing away with all abortions, period.

Others would say they are Pro Life with a more nuanced perspective of "safe, Legal, and rare"

Others argue that to be truly Pro Life/ anti abortion, you need to fund the appropriate support services that help improve the quality of life for children; services which all too often these days are put on the chopping block, or woefully underfunded.

like so many issues these days, this is not clear cut, or absolute and, in my opinion, which along with $1.75 will buy a good cup of coffee at the local bakery, there is too much talk from the extreme ends on both sides and not enough talk about the practical realities of life and legislation.  Are we willing and able to provide adequate child care funding, school funding, WIC and foodstamp funding, foster care system funding?  Again, just my opinion, but I feel these MUST be part of the conversation for us to truly be Pro Life.


And there are many of us who see ourselves as pro-choice and anti-abortion. And being pro-choice involves all of those "practical realities of life and legislation" mentioned above. These are the things that help a pregnant woman choose to give birth, whether she keeps the child or allows others to become his/her parents. We can do things that help women CHOOSE life. That is certainly the preferred choice among the pro-choice people I know.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2022, 11:41:03 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all
As someone who is pro-life I would oppose no exceptions for saving the life of the mother.


What about cases where the woman was not a consensual partner, i.e., rape, incest, drugged?


What about cases of birth defects where the child will not live beyond a few hours? Should the parents have a choice to end the pregnancy early?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rob Morris

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2022, 11:41:25 PM »
Pastor Morris:
2/3 of American Lutherans are pro-choice? Citation, please.
Me:
Pew research, which, by the way, says nearly half of the Missouri Synod members polled believe abortion should be legal in most cases.

Can you share a link, please? The pew research I found said 60% of Mainline Protestants, and only 37% of Evangelical Protestants, without further breakdown by denomination. https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/

Nevermind: found it. https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-denomination/lutheran-church-missouri-synod/views-about-abortion/

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2022, 11:46:19 PM »
Here's the thing: The rational pro-life position can be reached by folks who are not Theists.

But if you are a Christian, if you claim to believe the core tenets of the Faith like:
1. The full humanity of Jesus as explained in the Nicene Creed
2. Some basic Christian anthropology that sees human beings as created in the imago dei
3. Some understanding that the Mosaic injunction against murder being generally a good idea
amongst other things, I do not see how you can be Pro-Abortion. And please, for the love of honesty, don't lie about being pro choice but not pro abortion. Own your evil. Someone asked Peter if he was saying that the 2/3 of Lutherans who were Pro- Aborts were not Christian. I could be asked the same about the Pro-Abort Catholics. I can't say. But do I think they suck at it? Yeah. Big time.


OK, I'm pro-abortion when it will save the life of the mother.

I'm pro-abortion when the mother was an unwilling partner in the conception; but this doesn't mean that the mother must choose an abortion. The mental health of the mother in that situation is nearly as important as their physical life that is saved through an abortion.

I'm pro-abortion when it may save the newborn infant from hours of suffering before death because of a birth defect; but this doesn't mean that the mother must choose an abortion after discovering that her child will die soon after birth.

In all other situations abortions is not a good choice.


The emphasis is on choice, not abortion. There is an emphasis on life, but more so on the life of the mother-to-be rather than just on the child-to-be. There is a broader understanding of life (for the mother) that includes not just her physical life, but also her mental, emotional, and spiritual life. For some, watching her baby day a painful death over a few hours is more troublesome than a quick death in the womb.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 11:51:41 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2022, 11:47:07 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all


I’d be very interested to see examples gleaned from your “cursory glance.”  I don’t think that I’ve seen any proposed anti-abortion law that does not include an exception where continuing a pregnancy would put the mother’s health (or life) at risk. I would be interested to see proposals that depart from this approach.  Some proposals do indeed omit rape and incest exceptions.

Even the Texas' "Heartbeat Act" includes an exception for when the mother is at risk of death or severe irreversible bodily harm.


What about mental and emotional harm?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2022, 12:43:58 AM »
What about cases of birth defects where the child will not live beyond a few hours? Should the parents have a choice to end the pregnancy early?

You may dismiss this as "merely anecdotal" but in my teens I spent a lot of time with an extended family who had a severely mentally retarded adult lad Paul Eugene.

Paul Eugene could not really speak, and spent most of his time perusing old Sears & Roebucks catalogs.

Paul Eugene's parents were members of a (then) LCA congregation during the time when the LCA's "Social Teaching Statement on Abortion Practices" was being debated through various fora. 

His parents were asked point blank:  "If you had known that your son would have been this way, would you....."

And their point blank answer was:  "NO!".

Paul, Margie, and Paul Eugene most surely have a special place in God's Eternal Kingdom!
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