Author Topic: March for Life  (Read 1730 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2022, 08:45:17 AM »
Everyone knows families like that. I probably know six or seven or eight families like that. I also know a significant number of families who do not have the social, emotional, psychological, and financial resources to handle situation like that. I knew one family where the whole of the family life was severely threatened by even the possibility of a lifelong birth defect requiring massive care.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2022, 08:47:42 AM »
Everyone knows families like that. I probably know six or seven or eight families like that. I also know a significant number of families who do not have the social, emotional, psychological, and financial resources to handle situation like that. I knew one family where the whole of the family life was severely threatened by even the possibility of a lifelong birth defect requiring massive care.
And adoption isn't an option? How can it be more emotionally trying to give a baby up for adoption than to kill that same baby? Unless, of course, people have been falsely taught that that is not what they're doing when they get an abortion.

DeHall1

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2022, 08:50:08 AM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all


Iíd be very interested to see examples gleaned from your ďcursory glance.Ē  I donít think that Iíve seen any proposed anti-abortion law that does not include an exception where continuing a pregnancy would put the motherís health (or life) at risk. I would be interested to see proposals that depart from this approach.  Some proposals do indeed omit rape and incest exceptions.

Even the Texas' "Heartbeat Act" includes an exception for when the mother is at risk of death or severe irreversible bodily harm.


What about mental and emotional harm?

What about it?  The statement was that most proposed legislation does ďnot include any exceptions at allĒ.

The Texas law is the one most recently in the news (I assume because itís no longer ďproposedĒ).  I looked at it and What did I find?  An exceptionÖ

You donít like it?  Donít move to Texas.

Dan Fienen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2022, 08:55:11 AM »
Something that I don't quite understand. If, as Charles asserts, the Pro-life position is a minority position and a shrinking one at that, then why the angst over Roe v Wade? Surely, as an increasingly majority position, the Pro-choice position doesnít need the judicial protection to preserve what majorities routinely establish legislatively?
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David Garner

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2022, 10:18:45 AM »
Something that I don't quite understand. If, as Charles asserts, the Pro-life position is a minority position and a shrinking one at that, then why the angst over Roe v Wade? Surely, as an increasingly majority position, the Pro-choice position doesnít need the judicial protection to preserve what majorities routinely establish legislatively?

I don't buy the premise to begin with:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/225975/share-of-americans-who-are-pro-life-or-pro-choice/

Further.....

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/11/30/22808762/is-america-really-a-pro-choice-nation-abortion-roe-v-wade-supreme-court

But that's neither here nor there.  The truth is support for legalized abortion skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade, and so the pro choice folks know that what is at stake here is not legality, which may be legislated, but the imprimatur of legitimacy, which must be imposed from on high. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2022, 11:49:55 AM »
Simplistic questions - are you in favor of abortion? are you not in favor of abortion? - tell us nothing. The issue is the current laws concerning abortion.
More nuanced polling would show that many Americans who would never get an abortion for themselves and would advise others against an abortion still support laws allowing people to make a choice for abortion.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

David Garner

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2022, 12:02:41 PM »
Simplistic questions - are you in favor of abortion? are you not in favor of abortion? - tell us nothing. The issue is the current laws concerning abortion.
More nuanced polling would show that many Americans who would never get an abortion for themselves and would advise others against an abortion still support laws allowing people to make a choice for abortion.

Most abortion polling is abysmally done, asking broad, open ended questions like "do you favor overturning Roe v. Wade" without explaining what the effect of overturning Roe would be (most people think it means abortion would be illegal).  Very little effort is put into nuanced positions. 

As for what more nuanced polling "would show," that is mere supposition on your part, unless you have data to back it up.  The fact is, the polling we do have shows a few notable things.  Support for abortion goes down the older people become, the farther into the pregnancy abortion is proposed, and the more religiously observant one is.  About 2/3 of Americans think abortion should be mostly illegal in the 2nd trimester, and about 80% think it should be illegal in the third trimester.

That's hardly evidence of a prominent pro choice position and a dwindling pro life position.  In fact, as restrictions are legally imposed on abortion in various states, I think you'll start to see a couple of things crystalize into policy.  First, almost no one wants abortion to be illegal in any case.  Second, almost no one wants it to be legal in every case.  The more it looks like birth control and the less it looks like preserving the mother's life or health, the less support you will see for it.  Taking away the facade of legitimacy that Justice Blakmun granted by judicial fiat, people will be in a position to actually think about abortion, what it does, what it is, and debate its morality in the political square where it belongs.  That in and of itself is a moral good.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2022, 03:45:47 PM »
Simplistic questions - are you in favor of abortion? are you not in favor of abortion? - tell us nothing. The issue is the current laws concerning abortion.
More nuanced polling would show that many Americans who would never get an abortion for themselves and would advise others against an abortion still support laws allowing people to make a choice for abortion.
You say that many Americans who would never get an abortion for themselves still support laws allowing people to make a choice for abortion. How many is many? Would a million people be many? If the many who support a pro-choice legal position on abortion is a million Americans, that would be a very small percentage of the over 250 million adult Americans.


So just how many is your many Americans supporting pro-choice abortion laws? Could you suggest what portion of the adult American population support that position?
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Charles Austin

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2022, 05:29:01 PM »
I donít know the numbers. Look at the polls. Look at the attitudes expressed around you. I think itís clear that the more nuanced polls revealed that most Americans like the abortion laws the way they are now. But most do not prefer more restrictions on abortion.
Youíve got numbers on the so-called pro-life bodies, throw them out here.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Matt Hummel

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2022, 06:12:46 PM »
I donít know the numbers. Look at the polls. Look at the attitudes expressed around you. I think itís clear that the more nuanced polls revealed that most Americans like the abortion laws the way they are now. But most do not prefer more restrictions on abortion.
Youíve got numbers on the so-called pro-life bodies, throw them out here.

So what is a so-called pro-life body? Why the modifier? What is the point you are trying to make? That the Knights of Columbus are secretly proAbort? That Progressive AntiAbortion Uprising really wants kids dead? Or is it that various organizations donít measure up to your standards. What do poor benighted proliferate need to do to get the Austin seal of approval? What pro-life organization would you say isnít diminished with a so-called?
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ďThe chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.Ē

― J.R.R. Tolkien

D. Engebretson

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2022, 06:15:41 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all
As someone who is pro-life I would oppose no exceptions for saving the life of the mother.


What about cases where the woman was not a consensual partner, i.e., rape, incest, drugged?


What about cases of birth defects where the child will not live beyond a few hours? Should the parents have a choice to end the pregnancy early?

I think that these so-called "exceptions" get to the heart of what divides many of us on abortion.  If one does not believe that the pre-born life within the womb is fully human and deserving the same protection as life outside the womb, then almost any reason is seen as acceptable.  I fear that many people who support abortion believe that the only viable life is one that is not somehow tainted or compromised by the sin of another.  Or that viability or the health of the to be born person being compromised makes it acceptable to end it.  I have always believed that such thinking has broad implications well outside the womb. 

Our disagreements on abortion and its desired legality will continue to establish an unbreachable divide as long as we view the life within the womb so differently. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 06:17:27 PM by D. Engebretson »
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David Garner

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2022, 06:33:28 PM »
I donít know the numbers. Look at the polls. Look at the attitudes expressed around you. I think itís clear that the more nuanced polls revealed that most Americans like the abortion laws the way they are now. But most do not prefer more restrictions on abortion.
Youíve got numbers on the so-called pro-life bodies, throw them out here.

This is not a measure of anything.  For one, I don't get the impression that you often surround yourself with those who disagree with you on a great many things.

At least if you do, you'd have to conduct yourself differently than you do here.
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David Garner

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2022, 06:37:05 PM »
Even a cursory glance at proposed legislation in many states that would outlaw abortion shows that most do not include any exceptions at all
As someone who is pro-life I would oppose no exceptions for saving the life of the mother.


What about cases where the woman was not a consensual partner, i.e., rape, incest, drugged?


What about cases of birth defects where the child will not live beyond a few hours? Should the parents have a choice to end the pregnancy early?

I think that these so-called "exceptions" get to the heart of what divides many of us on abortion.  If one does not believe that the pre-born life within the womb is fully human and deserving the same protection as life outside the womb, then almost any reason is seen as acceptable.  I fear that many people who support abortion believe that the only viable life is one that is not somehow tainted or compromised by the sin of another.  Or that viability or the health of the to be born person being compromised makes it acceptable to end it.  I have always believed that such thinking has broad implications well outside the womb. 

Our disagreements on abortion and its desired legality will continue to establish an unbreachable divide as long as we view the life within the womb so differently.

Indeed, which is why I said upstream that the chief benefit of overturning Roe is to allow an honest conversation about that to take place in the political bodies, where that discussion belongs.

When the Supreme Court takes the issue off the table, it allows all manner of subterfuge and dodging.  That is much harder to do when both sides have a seat at the table and lawmakers are unafraid to have the discussion without fear that they will be accused of passing "unconstitutional" laws.  It requires the pro abortion side to come to the table with an honest discussion or risk being sidelined.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2022, 11:23:14 PM »
What about cases of birth defects where the child will not live beyond a few hours? Should the parents have a choice to end the pregnancy early?

You may dismiss this as "merely anecdotal" but in my teens I spent a lot of time with an extended family who had a severely mentally retarded adult lad Paul Eugene.

Paul Eugene could not really speak, and spent most of his time perusing old Sears & Roebucks catalogs.

Paul Eugene's parents were members of a (then) LCA congregation during the time when the LCA's "Social Teaching Statement on Abortion Practices" was being debated through various fora. 

His parents were asked point blank:  "If you had known that your son would have been this way, would you....."

And their point blank answer was:  "NO!".

Paul, Margie, and Paul Eugene most surely have a special place in God's Eternal Kingdom!


Was there the expectations that Paul would die within hours of being born? If not, then he didn't meet the criteria that is presented in our Social Statement on Abortion, which is what I based my comments on.


It does not say that aborting a child who will have birth defects. A motivational speaker I know has no legs. His parents knew when he was still in the womb that his legs would never work. To make mobility easier they were amputated. He has climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro on his hands. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/meet-spencer-west-the-legless-toronto-man-who-climbed-mount-kilimanjaro. (He went to high school with our sons.) His defects would not be a reason to choose an abortion.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 11:25:13 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: March for Life
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2022, 11:34:42 PM »
the chief benefit of overturning Roe is to allow an honest conversation about that to take place in the political bodies, where that discussion belongs.

When the Supreme Court takes the issue off the table, it allows all manner of subterfuge and dodging.  That is much harder to do when both sides have a seat at the table and lawmakers are unafraid to have the discussion without fear that they will be accused of passing "unconstitutional" laws.  It requires the pro abortion side to come to the table with an honest discussion or risk being sidelined.

Aye.

There will be 50+ conversations.

There will be numerous (and not unanimous) outcomes.

Some will decry the "blood borders" that will ensue.

Ja vell.

At the core, this is a States' Rights issue.
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