Poll

The pulpit in my Lutheran church is:

At the center of the chancel area.
0 (0%)
On the right side of the chancel (viewed from the nave).
21 (60%)
On the left side of the chancel (viewed from the nave).
10 (28.6%)
A different location.
0 (0%)
There is no pulpit.
4 (11.4%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Lutheran Architecture  (Read 6775 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2022, 11:05:51 PM »
Ordained, was I, at a synod convention with 10 other guys. The bishop (synod president, then) presided, and there was no communion.
Two week later, in Dubuque at my first parish, I presided for the first time. SBH sung liturgy, facing the against-the-wall altar for the Eucharist. Cassock, surplice and stole, little glasses for the distribution. No lay assistance. A year later much had changed.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 11:07:31 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2022, 11:29:10 PM »
Ordained, was I, at a synod convention with 10 other guys. The bishop (synod president, then) presided, and there was no communion.
Two week later, in Dubuque at my first parish, I presided for the first time. SBH sung liturgy, facing the against-the-wall altar for the Eucharist. Cassock, surplice and stole, little glasses for the distribution. No lay assistance. A year later much had changed.

Ordained at an Annual Conference (|| to Synod Assembly) in a large class, at which the Eucharist was celebrated and all we newly-Ordained assisted in the distribution with clay-fired Chalices which then became our Ordination present. 

Mine was used only one time, at my first liturgy which was also my final liturgy of the three-church "Windsor Area Larger Parish" which, within days, was about to be reduced from three congregations to two.  The service was held in the now seventeen years defunct Bittersville United Methodist Church (a gracious, generous congregation worthy of a much sweeter name) using the freestanding Altar/Communion Table from the Freysville Zion united Methodist Church.  I was vested in alb, stole, and chasuble and served the Blood of Christ from pouring Chalice which was a gift of those kind parishioners.

So what became of the clay fired chalice?  It toppled when about to be transported to a House Blessing, and despite copious padding and a bag filled with packing peanuts, it broke along the rim.   Repaired, I suppose, but never again used....a foreshadowing of future journeys.  It still sits on a shelf in my study; a reminder of what I was and a token of what I may still yet be.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 11:31:59 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
Greek Orthodox Deacon -Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Dave Benke

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2022, 07:52:47 AM »
Dave, you wrote: And then resolve to learn from those older than you.  That's the golden road to glory.

During my first couple of years in the ministry, I got to know two older brothers (probably my age now) who both had parishes in NW OH LCMS.  I liked both of them and enjoyed talking with them.  One day at some pastoral gathering I was talking with one of them and and then moved away and ended up speaking with a couple of other younger pastors (but older than I at the time) and they said, why are you spending time with that old guy, he is over the hill (or some such put-down reference).  Both the brothers, IMO, were wise about both theology and parish life.  That single conversation has dogged me all my life and as I am now in those years myself I sometimes wonder why some understand aging clergy thusly.  You can be a recent or present president of the US in your 70s but you better be out of the parish because it has outgrown you....   I think part of the answer lies in the fact that most Lutheran churches are small, too small and it takes a large parish to support a team of pastors where you have the young, the middle age and senior clergy as possible leaders at the same time.   And the retirement of clergy allows for more movement among the younger.  What do you think?  Is there more than there should be disparagement of the aging and not the best use of retired clergy?  I do apologize because I know it is self-serving to state and ask this, but...

I also had several early experiences that without question shaped my experience and understanding of pastoral ministry.  First, there was the "convivium fraternum" which met weekly in the rectory of St. John the Evangelist with Richard John Neuhuas hosting.  Seven or eight of us were there - all of those present were older than I, some by a little, some by a little more, but it was like having older brothers walking you down the road.  The other grouping were three or four pastors far more senior than I, one had been the Exec. Director of ALPB, others were from neighboring counties to Kings/Brooklyn.  They functioned as spiritual fathers or uncles, open to listen and full of wisdom. 

Disparagement of the aging, if and where it exists in the Church and especially among clergy, is just like that disparagement in a family.   It's toxic and circular, and in a word sinful.

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2022, 12:10:34 PM »
I was ordained at my home congregation with my uncle as the officiant (with my district president's permission). Besides the normal presentation of a stole I also included the presentation of a chasuble, which I then wore as I presided over the eucharist. It was a way of introducing this traditional vestment to the congregation.

The ALC normally did not have mass ordinations at district conventions.

In my experience, a normal worship service, includes communion. That includes special services like ordinations, installations, and anniversaries, etc. The rubrics for the installation of a pastor begins: "Installation is appropriately set within the service of Holy Communion, following the sermon and hymn of the day." Also for an ordination: "Ordination is properly set within the service of Holy Communion, following the sermon and the hymn of the day."

I have mixed opinions about installations. On one hand, the pastor is being installed as the pastor of that local congregation. Doing the installation during a normal Sunday morning service gets a greater number of congregational members to attend. It makes it part of their normal worship pattern.

On the other hand, the church is larger than the congregation, so a special afternoon service where conference pastors and community folks can attend helps show that the congregation's pastor is to be involved with activities beyond the congregation, e.g., conference, synod, and community.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RogerMartim

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2022, 08:32:24 PM »
This doesn't have much to do with architecture although I can add an observation in this discussion.
The church that I grew up in is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful in my hometown. It does have a few liturgical quirks which I've never seen elsewhere. In the center of the altar is a missal stand that is always, and I repeat, always empty. I've never seen a book on it. When there is communion, the patens, chalices, etc. are always on the side of the altar. The pastor goes to the side of the altar to say the Verba and makes the sign of the cross over the elements. Has anyone ever seen this before?
Again, I say that it is one of the most beautiful churches I've ever seen, if I may say so, but its architectural integrity was most severely compromised when the church decided that they needed a larger narthex—why, I don't know. An architectural firm which I think did not care one hoot about anything but lining its pockets with money drew up plans for a new narthex which made the church completely asymetrical and it now looks like a Las Vegas showroom with sofas and easy chairs, etc. The new narthex was built along the entire side of the church building completely burying over the beautiful stain glass windows. Later special lighting had to be installed so people could see the windows from the inside. On the narthex side the windows were boarded up as it was completely useless. The showroom's decor is all pastel in color. I was not around when all this was happening but I do remember that my parents were vehemently against this atrocity. I have a dim view of church architects as the church that I was a member of back in the East contracted a firm to draw up plans. Fortunately, it never got past the committee as the plans were so utterly atrocious. Caveat emptor big time around something like this. 

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2022, 10:00:20 AM »
Seeing several mentions of unusual stagings of communion, I offer this one which I randomly encountered this morning on Twitter, of an Episcopal church which seems similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-k-EY7vp7s

Jump to 50 minutes for the start of communion.  The missal stand on the left end of the altar, celebrant standing there (liturgical north?) facing across the altar with the vessels in the center.  Perhaps he's facing compass east?  Sorry didn't take the time to investigate further.  Also interesting, but perhaps not surprising given it's an Episcopal church, the priests are not vested in albs but also then no chasuble.  It does seem rather Anglo-catholic but perhaps old school so (the celebrant kneeling for what I think is the second confiteor during the consecration).

I realize what is unusual for some may just be a lack of wider experience, but still an interesting conversation.

(As my senior pastor has an affinity for Anglican tradition, both our pastors wear the cassock/surplice/stole for any non-communion services.  Perhaps a bit unusual today as most Lutheran pastors now wear the alb all the time, which itself is a recent adoption as I recall otherwise from my childhood.)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 11:04:22 AM by MaddogLutheran »
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Dave Benke

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2022, 10:47:13 AM »
This doesn't have much to do with architecture although I can add an observation in this discussion.
The church that I grew up in is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful in my hometown. It does have a few liturgical quirks which I've never seen elsewhere. In the center of the altar is a missal stand that is always, and I repeat, always empty. I've never seen a book on it. When there is communion, the patens, chalices, etc. are always on the side of the altar. The pastor goes to the side of the altar to say the Verba and makes the sign of the cross over the elements. Has anyone ever seen this before?
Again, I say that it is one of the most beautiful churches I've ever seen, if I may say so, but its architectural integrity was most severely compromised when the church decided that they needed a larger narthex—why, I don't know. An architectural firm which I think did not care one hoot about anything but lining its pockets with money drew up plans for a new narthex which made the church completely asymetrical and it now looks like a Las Vegas showroom with sofas and easy chairs, etc. The new narthex was built along the entire side of the church building completely burying over the beautiful stain glass windows. Later special lighting had to be installed so people could see the windows from the inside. On the narthex side the windows were boarded up as it was completely useless. The showroom's decor is all pastel in color. I was not around when all this was happening but I do remember that my parents were vehemently against this atrocity. I have a dim view of church architects as the church that I was a member of back in the East contracted a firm to draw up plans. Fortunately, it never got past the committee as the plans were so utterly atrocious. Caveat emptor big time around something like this.

a) I've not seen the consecration at the side of the altar - doesn't make any sense
b) congregational decisions like the one you describe are often made for reasons that can't be fathomed, or are taken in directions that no one could have imagined.   The law of unintended consequences.  But - you kind of depend on the architects to prevent those unintended consequences.

I arrived in Brooklyn about six years after the building of the new sanctuary.  Some interesting architectural thoughts, none of which involved maintenance or facility use.  So we risked the lives of senior citizen electricians, and then mine, for decades because the lighting was 35 feet up on the ceiling, with bulbs that burned out frequently.  And the church was built with no windows that open, and yet without air conditioning.  And with plumbing based on home rather than commercial-use pipes.  It turned out the architect had once been a clergyman. 
45 years later (!), we've cleaned up most of those issues. As you say, caveat emptor.

Dave Benke

RayToy

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2022, 11:58:39 AM »
    As I watched this video, I was thinking that maybe some of this may be CoVid adjustment related.  For example, the celebrant did not go near the bread and wine during the verba.  I have otherwise never seen this style of presiding anywhere else.

Ray


Seeing several mentions of unusual stagings of communion, I offer this one which I randomly encountered this morning on Twitter, of an Episcopal church which seems similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-k-EY7vp7s

Jump to 50 minutes for the start of communion.  The missal stand on the left end of the altar, celebrant standing there (liturgical north?) facing across the altar with the vessels in the center.  Perhaps he's facing compass east?  Sorry didn't take the time to investigate further.  Also interesting, but perhaps not surprising given it's an Episcopal church, the priests are not vested in albs but also then no chasuble.  It does seem rather Anglo-catholic but perhaps old school so (the celebrant kneeling for what I think is the second confiteor during the consecration).

I realize what is unusual for some may just be a lack of wider experience, but still an interesting conversation.

(As my senior pastor has an affinity for Anglican tradition, both our pastors wear the cassock/surplice/stole for any non-communion services.  Perhaps a bit unusual today as most Lutheran pastors now wear the alb all the time, which itself is a recent adoption as I recall otherwise from my childhood.)
Deacon Raymond Toy, OSSD

peterm

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2022, 01:20:19 PM »
Then again, with interns/vicars there is the additional question of his/her celebrating Holy Communion and that not so much when the pastor loci is on vacation as during a hospital call or with homebound especially in large parishes (that tend to have vicars) where there are many homebound and many hospitalized members.  It was done pro tem mostly in that it did not exceed the time of the internship.  However, it did take away (I know this is emotionalism) from celebrating FOR THE FIRST time at one's ordination... albeit with the change to mass ordinations as became more the custom in the ELCA and others than LCMS I assume... no one celebrated for the first time at their ordination.

When we have Interns, they take communion from the Altar to use during the week, our Book of Occasional Services has a Communion Liturgy that is designed to be used by Lay Leaders.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2022, 02:38:25 PM »

When we have Interns, they take communion from the Altar to use during the week,

????
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2022, 03:25:21 PM »

When we have Interns, they take communion from the Altar to use during the week,

????

Or, to paraphrase the sainted Norman Nagel, it is not given them to do.
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Dave Benke

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2022, 03:25:45 PM »
Then again, with interns/vicars there is the additional question of his/her celebrating Holy Communion and that not so much when the pastor loci is on vacation as during a hospital call or with homebound especially in large parishes (that tend to have vicars) where there are many homebound and many hospitalized members.  It was done pro tem mostly in that it did not exceed the time of the internship.  However, it did take away (I know this is emotionalism) from celebrating FOR THE FIRST time at one's ordination... albeit with the change to mass ordinations as became more the custom in the ELCA and others than LCMS I assume... no one celebrated for the first time at their ordination.

When we have Interns, they take communion from the Altar to use during the week, our Book of Occasional Services has a Communion Liturgy that is designed to be used by Lay Leaders.

Bringing the Eucharist to shut-ins, I'm guessing?

Dave Benke

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2022, 03:32:23 PM »
    As I watched this video, I was thinking that maybe some of this may be CoVid adjustment related.  For example, the celebrant did not go near the bread and wine during the verba.  I have otherwise never seen this style of presiding anywhere else.

Ray

Helpful observation about COVID!  I posted immediately because I wanted to get it into the conversation.  Have since had time to look at a few other of their worship livestreams, which look like more of the same.  So not a one off.

As the church is in Texas, and I see no one masked, I doubt its related to health concerns.  Watching an Advent eucharist, the location of the camera shooting the celebrant caught my eye.  Perhaps this is a concession to live streaming, which I find a bit odd...odd because it certainly looks like this parish is used to celebration ad orientem, but maybe it was just a bit too viewer unfriendly on the livestream.  Maybe they couldn't orient (ha!) the camera to the right of the altar low enough to get the celebrant in frame, and/or the rear camera was angle was unsatisfying.
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peterm

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2022, 10:45:04 AM »

When we have Interns, they take communion from the Altar to use during the week,

????

To clarify, it follows along the same pattern on Eucharistic ministers in other traditions.  The elements taken are already consecrated so they are not consecrating the elements, simply serving if you will.  When planning this with Interns and Deacons, those visits are typically scheduled for immediately following worship or on Mondays.  I realize that in the LCMS the practice of having someone other than the Pastor serve communion is seen as questionable, but in other parts of the Lutheran world and the church in general it is fairly common practice.

Or, to paraphrase the sainted Norman Nagel, it is not given them to do.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 12:39:36 PM by Richard Johnson »
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Lutheran Architecture
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2022, 12:40:58 PM »
Oh, OK. It was your saying it was "to use during the week" without clarifying just what "use" you had in mind that was confusing. It sounded a bit like the old medieval problem of people spiriting the host away to keep at home and ward off evil spirits.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS