Author Topic: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News  (Read 4581 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2021, 10:16:46 AM »
Pastot Bohler:
Obviously it IS "critically important" to know a person's gender or sexual orientation.  Else one risks being destroyed personally, professionally, socially, and financially if using the wrong pronouns or somehow offending such a person.
Me:
I hope you’re speaking sarcastically.
You can’t really be afraid that you’re going to be damaged by what gay or lesbian or transgender people think of you.
And if you give anybody, repeat anybody, power over the pronouns that you use in “normal“ English, then that “anybody” has won.

I guess you have not been paying attention to the news.  How is life in your little bubble? 

Charles Austin

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2021, 10:50:26 AM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?
 
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2021, 12:13:17 PM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?


Yes. How many of them continue to use he (or He) as a pronoun for God when there are hundreds or maybe thousands of folks who object to that.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Coach-Rev

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2021, 12:26:47 PM »
Jeff simply notes that the galactic absurdity on display in this thread alone is the main reason I mostly lurk here these days, and even then, not all that often...  :o
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

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Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2021, 12:54:55 PM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?
If it really, as you assert, matters little what others say about you and there is no practical consequences to having some call you out for what you say, then why the complaints about how you, Charles, and your liberal/progressive compatriots are called, referred to, and written about in this modest forum? You complain that the more liberal side of American Lutheranism and of the ELCA are not well represented on this forum and you have said that one of the reasons is that they are treated with disrespect here. But what are those here who do not show the proper respect and deference to the more liberal/progressive among American Lutheranism and especially your home church the ELCA going to do to them. Break into their banks and ravage their accounts? Complain to their congregations or bishops? Why should they care what we say about them any more than you figure that Steven Bohler should care about what members of the LGBTQ community would say about him? Or do you figure that conservatives should be held to higher standard of politeness and civility than the LGBTQ community?
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Charles Austin

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2021, 01:04:57 PM »
Pastor Bohler thinks “those people” can run his life in someway. I think that’s absurd.
And the conservatives in this modest form are certainly no threat to my life.
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 01:06:35 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Charles Austin

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2021, 01:08:35 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
…you have said that one of the reasons is that they are treated with disrespect here.

Me:
But a bigger reason is that they find the arguments here meaningless to their lives and not very compelling.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2021, 01:29:53 PM »
Pastor Bohler thinks “those people” can run his life in someway. I think that’s absurd.
And the conservatives in this modest form are certainly no threat to my life.
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.
I wouldn't say never.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James S. Rustad

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2021, 02:32:39 PM »
They remains in office as an ELCA bishop.

Fr. Michael highlights why this strikes me so wrong.  We take a plural pronoun, but because of this silly fiction that she is not a she (even though she is actually a he, but I can at least grant that bit of fiction for the sake of politeness), we use the plural pronoun, and the only way to avoid further absurdity is to pair it with a singular verb.  So "they.....remains."

It's utterly stupid, but here we are, in 2021, pretending English is not a language with rules.

I'm not aiming this at you, Fr. Michael.  I hope that is clear.  I only chose your post to highlight it because it did so in such spot-on fashion.

Singular they has been in use since the 14th century, at least.  The normal use is in a case where you are talking about someone who's gender you do not know.  The new feature being added by some is to use singular they for someone asserting a non-binary gender.

One common bugbear of the grammatical stickler is the singular they. For those who haven’t kept up, the complaint is this: the use of they as a gender-neutral pronoun (as in, “Ask each of the students what they want for lunch.”) is ungrammatical because they is a plural pronoun.

James S. Rustad

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2021, 03:13:03 PM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Work for certain employers while refusing to use preferred pronouns and you will find out just how much control "they" have over you.

Peter Vlaming, who taught French in Virginia’s West Point school district for seven years, was suspended and subsequently fired in 2018 for not using a male pronoun to refer to a female student who identified as a transgender male. Vlaming claimed he could not do for religious reasons.

11. Could use of pronouns or names that are inconsistent with an individual’s gender identity be considered harassment?

Yes, in certain circumstances. Unlawful harassment includes unwelcome conduct that is based on gender identity. To be unlawful, the conduct must be severe or pervasive when considered together with all other unwelcome conduct based on the individual’s sex including gender identity, thereby creating a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or offensive. In its decision in Lusardi v. Dep’t of the Army,[7] the Commission explained that although accidental misuse of a transgender employee’s preferred name and pronouns does not violate Title VII, intentionally and repeatedly using the wrong name and pronouns to refer to a transgender employee could contribute to an unlawful hostile work environment.

RDPreus

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2021, 05:00:58 PM »
Rev. Austin asks, "I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?"

Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?

Jim Butler

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2021, 07:11:51 PM »
She remains in office as an ELCA bishop.
I do not believe that the organization that suspended her is an official ELCA entity.

Why are you a hater? What kind of transphobic cretin are you?

You should be reported to your bishop and put under whatever discipline exists for hateful people like you.

The bishop at worst, should be referred to as "he.' They is a transgender man. Referring to them as 'she' is hateful and demeaning. What's next, deadnaming?

Hater.

And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?

Because of narrow-minded, hate filled, transphobic deadnamers like you who shouldn't be allowed to live.

===
In all seriousness, the questions you are asking of Prs. Preus and Bohler show that you don't really understand the trans community. Do you have any idea of the offense you would have caused by calling a transgender male "she"? Next thing you know, you're going to tell us that men can't have periods or give birth.

You best contact the group that has disowned the bishop, tell them your sins of misgendering and deadnaming, and ask them what you need to do for penance.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 09:47:17 PM by jebutler »
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Jim Butler

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2021, 07:15:16 PM »
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.

Dude, you called a transgender male "she."

That proves that you are a cisgendered, clueless, white privileged male and a hater to boot.

Forget saying you "try to maintain a modicum of politesse" (whatever "politesse" is). Your language shows otherwise.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

RogerMartim

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2021, 08:19:13 PM »
This would not be a problem in German with its Sie, sie, sie (you, they, she/it).

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2021, 08:38:23 PM »
And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?

I think, Charles, you mean their sex or sexual orientation. Gender and sexual orientation is somewhat of a redundancy.
Don Kirchner

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