Author Topic: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News  (Read 4576 times)

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2021, 09:22:08 PM »
Pastor plPreus:
Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?

Me:
What does that have to do with their gender or knowing whether or not they are gay?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2021, 09:40:00 PM »
Pastor plPreus:
Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?

Me:
What does that have to do with their gender or knowing whether or not they are gay?

I'm just trying to test the limits of your approval of perverts.  You say I should not care if someone is a homosexual or a tranny.  Clearly, you think that such perversions are of no concern to me.  What about child molesters?  Where do you draw the line? 

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2021, 10:43:29 PM »
Pastor Preus, Your use of the word “perverts” and “perversions” here means that our exchange on this matter is over. Of course you do not need my approval to feel smug about this. “Ha ha! He approves perverts and I don’t. Ha ha!”
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2021, 11:58:45 PM »
No, I don't feel smug.  I feel sorry for you.  You are so blinded by the false standards of the popular culture that you become angry when someone uses a word  -- pervert -- that not so long ago was commonly used by to describe homosexuals.  I have so angered you by breaking a "woke" rule that you won't discuss the matter with me further.  But I am always willing to talk with you, even when you embrace the standards of a godless culture. 

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2021, 02:02:21 PM »
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2021, 02:09:21 PM »
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7123
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2021, 02:39:23 PM »
I will use NEWSPEAK to summarize my thoughts:

Bishop Megan Rohrer is a trans-male.  Therefore, they is a white male.  Clearly, the incident in question, the firing of the Latinx pastor, is an example of patriarchy and white supremacy.  ELM had no choice to cut ties with them.

No further reporting necessary.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2021, 02:58:39 PM »
Way back in the 1950s, when most of us had a quite different understanding of homosexuality, my mother chastised me and my brother if we used terms like "pervert" or "fag" or "queer." For one thing, we were inclined to apply those terms to people we deemed insufficiently "masculine" or "feminine." She found that judgmental. There's nothing "wrong" if a guy wears a pink shirt.
   But she also believed that the people mocked by those terms were sick, mentally and/or physically, and felt you should not dismiss people or make fun of them for being sick.
   Now many of us have a different understanding of sexuality. And even those who do not share our understanding should - if they are paying attention to the real world - be able to have some compassion for those whom they believe to be disordered. Dismissing them as "perverts" or linking them to child molestation therefore seems especially cruel.
  The reality of the world is clear. We have gays, lesbians and transgendered people, most of them proud of who they are, or who they have become, and many of them prominent in public life, like being a Lutheran bishop.
   I do not believe it would be a good thing to let that "old language" continue. That sentence, by the way, does not refer to the current silliness over pronouns.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 03:40:26 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2021, 03:57:45 PM »
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.

Brian, I think we've had very different experiences with persons we've known. I will list a few examples, too:

R.R. Teacher imprisoned for child porn.
M.F. Pursued foreign exchange student, who came to my relative looking for shelter. Abusive.
A.C. Described abuse in family and pursued unfaithfulness in relations.
T. Exploited by older men and seeking to do the same to others.
R. Estranged wife and children to come out. Divorced.

There's a world of damaged and damaging people out there. The Gospel has healing for these people but the Law also has its role in calling people to a different life. I remain concerned that the "gospel" of acceptance is entrenching people in unhealthy and often self destructive life styles. I don't think that is the will of God. Lord, have mercy.
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2021, 04:21:43 PM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Apparently you thought that I was only speaking for myself.  I was not.  No, I have very little concern that my life or living or reputation might be destroyed for using the wrong pronoun.  But I was rather thinking of others who have experienced such savaging for such transgressions.  And if you are not aware of those examples, then you must live in a snug, comfortable bubble indeed.

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2021, 09:24:38 PM »
Rev. Austin, you wrote above: "Pastor Preus, Your use of the word “perverts” and “perversions” here means that our exchange on this matter is over." 

Later, you wrote: "Now many of us have a different understanding of sexuality. And even those who do not share our understanding should - if they are paying attention to the real world - be able to have some compassion for those whom they believe to be disordered. Dismissing them as "perverts" or linking them to child molestation therefore seems especially cruel."

So "our exchange on this matter is over," but it's not really over, is it?  I've struck a nerve!  You won't talk to me, but you'll talk at me.  You defend a perversion that God's word condemns while you point the finger at me and accuse me of being cruel and lacking in compassion.  You say it is cruel to link homosexuality with child molestation.  There is a fine line between the adolescent boy and the young man.  How young must the victim of the homosexual predator be before you would grant that what he is doing is perverted?  Sixteen?  Fourteen?  Twelve?  Ten?

I know you won't answer me directly, but perhaps you could do so indirectly.  Do you believe that Jesus died for perverts?  I do.  Do you believe that God loves perverts?  I do.  Do you believe that God wants perverts to be saved?  I do.  Do you believe that God, in forgiving a pervert, has the power to change him on the inside so that he can fight against his perversion and, by his grace, overcome it so that even if it rises to claim his affection, he can drive it away by the power of his baptism?  Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, Rev. Austin, real sinners: perverts, prostitutes, liars, thieves, and arrogant religious know it alls like you and me. 

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13570
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2021, 10:11:49 AM »
God created humanity to be male or female. This I know from Genesis and believe. But I also know and believe that after the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, creation is no longer as God created it. Genesis 3 made that abundantly clear. Some of the perversion of creation is a result of individuals' intentional sin. Much of it is because we now live in a creation tainted and perverted by sin, not attributable to any one's individual sin but the effects that sin had on creation.


Gender dysphoria is one of those unfortunate disordering of creation that resulted from sin. Tracing its roots and origin is far beyond my competence. My suspicion is that there are multiple causes and manifestations, some genetic, some in upbringing and socialization, and some in personal choice. It seems a quite complex condition. One size fits all treatment also seems inappropriate. I do not have the competence to rule out as appropriate radical treatment such as sex reassignment therapy or surgery as appropriate in some cases. Individuals dealing with these issues need our understanding, sympathy, and support.


What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community. Disparaging those who are not Trans (he's just cis-gendered) and pushing the most radical of treatments (sex reassignment hormone and surgical treatment) for all who are dealing with gender dysphoria seems inappropriate. That in some cases such a radical remedy may be indicated seems reasonable. But that should be undertaken not as the first choice but the last. This is especially true when adolescents or younger are involved. Gender dysphoria in the young needs to be handled with care, understanding, and sympathy, but apparently for some, any gender identity issues in the young is taken as a firm and permanent indication that sex reassignment is a necessity. That can do as much harm and ignoring or scorning gender discomfort.


As to calling behaviors perversion and those who practice them perverts, we need to remember that all sin represents perversions of something good. We are not Manicheans; we do not believe that Satan is God's opposite and equal, but God's creation who perverted his created nature to do evil. Insofar as all of us sin, we are all perverts, perverting what God created good in and for us to do wrong. Sexual perversions (or more likely just certain sexual perversions that the one calling it out especially does not like or share) are no more or less sinful perversions than those of the rest of the panoply of sinful perversions of God's good creation that people manifest. Does using that designator help discussions?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 8078
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2021, 11:26:48 AM »
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Apparently you thought that I was only speaking for myself.  I was not.  No, I have very little concern that my life or living or reputation might be destroyed for using the wrong pronoun.  But I was rather thinking of others who have experienced such savaging for such transgressions.  And if you are not aware of those examples, then you must live in a snug, comfortable bubble indeed.

I find it hard to believe this conversation is actually taking place, and I expect gaslighting from Pastor Austin. 

This, though -- this is beyond gaslighting.  It's quite literally peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining.  If people use whatever pronouns they wish and then mind their business when people continue speaking as they always have, literally nobody has a problem with that.  It's precisely the push to cancel people for not using language that popped up 5 minutes ago, rhetorically speaking, that is objectionable.  At least for anyone who appreciates basic biology and human history.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2021, 11:31:05 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 8078
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2021, 11:34:43 AM »
God created humanity to be male or female. This I know from Genesis and believe. But I also know and believe that after the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, creation is no longer as God created it. Genesis 3 made that abundantly clear. Some of the perversion of creation is a result of individuals' intentional sin. Much of it is because we now live in a creation tainted and perverted by sin, not attributable to any one's individual sin but the effects that sin had on creation.


Gender dysphoria is one of those unfortunate disordering of creation that resulted from sin. Tracing its roots and origin is far beyond my competence. My suspicion is that there are multiple causes and manifestations, some genetic, some in upbringing and socialization, and some in personal choice. It seems a quite complex condition. One size fits all treatment also seems inappropriate. I do not have the competence to rule out as appropriate radical treatment such as sex reassignment therapy or surgery as appropriate in some cases. Individuals dealing with these issues need our understanding, sympathy, and support.


What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community. Disparaging those who are not Trans (he's just cis-gendered) and pushing the most radical of treatments (sex reassignment hormone and surgical treatment) for all who are dealing with gender dysphoria seems inappropriate. That in some cases such a radical remedy may be indicated seems reasonable. But that should be undertaken not as the first choice but the last. This is especially true when adolescents or younger are involved. Gender dysphoria in the young needs to be handled with care, understanding, and sympathy, but apparently for some, any gender identity issues in the young is taken as a firm and permanent indication that sex reassignment is a necessity. That can do as much harm and ignoring or scorning gender discomfort.


As to calling behaviors perversion and those who practice them perverts, we need to remember that all sin represents perversions of something good. We are not Manicheans; we do not believe that Satan is God's opposite and equal, but God's creation who perverted his created nature to do evil. Insofar as all of us sin, we are all perverts, perverting what God created good in and for us to do wrong. Sexual perversions (or more likely just certain sexual perversions that the one calling it out especially does not like or share) are no more or less sinful perversions than those of the rest of the panoply of sinful perversions of God's good creation that people manifest. Does using that designator help discussions?

The concern with the push to encourage transgenderism in society, beyond pushing it on children who are already confused and struggling with becoming adults, is precisely that it rejects the Image of God in man.  God created us, fearfully, wonderfully.  The Fall, as you rightly state, disorders that, but we are still created in the Image of God, having lost His likeness, and denying that has ramifications that go far beyond being nice to people who suffer from gender dysphoria.  It has implications for how we view our neighbor as well.

One of the worst things about society is the desire to dehumanize those who are inconvenient to us.  We see it on the right and the left, among Christians and non-Christians, and we have for quite a long time (is the desire to dehumanize the unborn to justify killing them really any different in a fundamental sense than the desire to dehumanize black people to justify their enslavement?). When Jesus said "whatever you have done for the least of these, my brethren, you have done for me," I doubt He had in mind exceptions such as "expect for black people, or infants in the womb, or cisgendered Patriarchal white males," or whatever.  We are to look at our neighbor and see Jesus.  He is the mark.  We all fall short of the mark, so He teaches us to see in others what He sees.  When the starting premise is "I reject my own creation," we deny Jesus in us.  How can we possibly then see Him in others?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).