Author Topic: So now that it's over...  (Read 11887 times)

Pr. Jerry

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2007, 09:56:21 AM »
P.s., Sorry, Kliner, for the tangent: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Te Absolvo...

It's just nice to have you on the list, Riegel!

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

David Charlton

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2007, 11:37:51 AM »
Stoffregen writes
Quote
Doing Luther's Latin Mass in Latin or the German Mass in German would meet the theological and confessional criteria, but would be meaningless to most of the people in our pews.
I know this is going to sound counterintuitive.  I serve as chaplain (campus pastor sounds wimpy, so I don't use it) at a Lutheran Campus Ministry in West Virginia.  We've done Luther's German Mass in German.  We've also done a full Latin mass (Orbis factor orndinary with propers for Judica) with all the Gregorian chant.  We've also prayed vespers for Advent and three complines for Passiontide all straight from the Liber usualis.  No one complained except one cranky pastor in a neighboring synod.  In fact, the students, faculty, staff, and townies that attended raved about it.  It was because of popular demand that we even did a second Latin Liturgy after the mass.  Nearly 140 people attended the Advent vespers.  We have people asking for more and two invitations from outside our synod to take the Latin compline on the road.

Meaningless?

Wasn't one of the reasons given for the Pope's recent Motu Proprio that young people were asking for it, not just old curmudgeons.?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 01:11:50 PM by Richard Johnson »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2007, 12:36:20 PM »
Meaningless?
  • Well, on one level, yes, meaningful, for these non-vernacular liturgies were held with diaglot bulletins.  Full translations were provided.  So, people knew the meaning of what was being chanted so long as they bothered to read the bulletin.
So, you recognized that a need of the assembled people was to have a translation of the foreign language, rather than just speaking in foreign tongues as it were.

Granted that my use of "meaningless" was centered on cognitive comprehension of the words that were being said and sung. It is also worth talking about meaning in terms of experience. There is an experiential component to being in a gothic cathedral and hearing a men's choir chant plainsong melodies in Latin; or sitting on the floor chanting Taize phrases in a foreign language with people from all over the world. Such worship experiences can transport us to another place in ways that using the latest popular sounds from the radio can't do.

At the same time, I've been in places where they wanted us to sing in Spanish or Swahili -- languages I don't know, and it was not worshipful, but a struggle; and, at some churches I've served, they readily sang a verse of Silent Night in German. Where I'm at now, we have sung a verse of Children of the Heavenly Father in Norwegian (as ELW has it). The participation of the congregation goes up considerably -- at least as indicated by the volume -- when we go to the English words.

Part of the "pastoral sensitivity" to the gathered assembly in worship planning is discerning what one wants the people to do, to experience, and how we can help bring that about.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 06:46:07 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dadoo

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2007, 03:02:44 PM »

Part of the "pastoral sensitivity" to the gathered assembly in worship planning is discerning what one wants the people to do, to experience, and how we can help bring that about.

This sounds very close to my critique of Renewing Worship's attempts at forging new daily prayer services. By omiting the name of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from the ends of the canticles made it possible for communities that felt they did not want to use that language a lot to use these rites but impossible for communities that were in the habit of ending their evening and morning prayer canticles and psalm s to use these liturgies. ELW fixed some of this but not all.

Keep the Faith

Peter
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 08:22:26 PM by Dadoo »
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2007, 12:59:23 AM »
Where I'm at now, we have sung a verse of Children of the Heavenly Father in Norwegian (as ELW has it).

Funny.  My ELW has a Swedish stanza.

Frid och allt gott, f. Steven
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Charles_Austin

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2007, 03:08:17 AM »
Steven P. Tibbetts writes (re Children of the Heavenly Father):
Funny.  My ELW has a Swedish stanza.

I note:
Mine, too. But we can cut some slack if someone whose name ends in "gen" doesn't quite get the language of those who names end in "son".

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2007, 03:14:05 AM »
Where I'm at now, we have sung a verse of Children of the Heavenly Father in Norwegian (as ELW has it).

Funny. My ELW has a Swedish stanza.
All you Scandinavians sound alike to us Germans.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2007, 09:51:48 AM »
Where I'm at now, we have sung a verse of Children of the Heavenly Father in Norwegian (as ELW has it).

Funny.  My ELW has a Swedish stanza.
All you Scandinavians sound alike to us Germans.

This is no doubt why we multi-ethnic heritage people are so much more balanced and reasonable than anyone else. (Though I have to admit that my Swedish blood is WAY thicker than my German blood, though the latter is certainly there, even if less significantly so than in my wife [1/4] and children [1/8]).
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS