Author Topic: So now that it's over...  (Read 12215 times)

Pr. Jerry

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So now that it's over...
« on: August 12, 2007, 10:13:51 AM »
So now that it's over...

What are the lessons that we can glean or learn from the CWA?  ???
What is the direction of the denomination?   :D  >:(  :(  :'(
What stories will we take out of this CWA (ya' know...  Those memorable moments that made you laugh, cry, shout aloud in frustration)?  :o
What the heck will we do with the actions that the CWA passed?  ;D

That's it...  I'm verklempt...  Talkst amongst yourselves... :)

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2007, 10:38:59 AM »
I note that of 22 votes listed on the ELCA site; 15 were received more than 90% approval. Two of the seven that didn't were the elections of the Presiding Bishop and the Secretary. We are a church that is united about many things.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Erma_S._Wolf

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 10:44:58 AM »
Jerry, here is what I will be doing.  I want to invite you and others to this event:

   Lutheran CORE (Coalition for Reform)  National Gathering!

         Friday, September 28, 2007 from 10 am to 4 pm

         "'This Church' and God's Church"

           St. Mark Lutheran Church  in Lindenhurst, Illinois



This gathering is to review the events at the 2007 Churchwide Assembly and plan ahead for 2008 and 2009.  The speakers will be Dr. Robert Benne of Roanoke College, Dr. James Nestingen, professor emeritus of Luther Seminary, and Pastor Paull Spring.

But there will be more than speakers.  This is not a pity-party!  The afternoon will be spent in practical workshops for all who are in the ELCA and share concern for the future of this denomination.  There is much to do and time is of the essence.  There is hopeful news out of this year's assembly, despite the reaction to the passage of Bishop Landahl's substitute motion.  

If you are getting ready to leave the ELCA, send us your prayers.  But if you are ready to get down to business, you need to start making arrangements to attend.  St. Mark's holds 450 people in the sanctuary, and is on the north side of metro Chicago.  There is a $10 registration fee (for cost of lunch) and registration should be sent to the Lutheran CORE, c/o Word Alone Network, 2299 Palmer Drive, Suite 220, New Brighton, MN 55112, with checks payable to WordAlone Network.  For questions contact prsteveshipman@gmail.com  (please do not call the host church).

I was at the assembly.  There were more than 400 people there who voted against "restraint and/or refrain from discipline."  I will not break faith with them.

As they say down South,  "Ya'll come!"

Erma Wolf
Lutheran CORE steering committee vice chair

Bergs

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 12:18:17 PM »
Jerry, here is what I will be doing.  I want to invite you and others to this event:

I was at the assembly.  There were more than 400 people there who voted against "restraint and/or refrain from discipline."  I will not break faith with them.

As they say down South,  "Ya'll come!"

Erma Wolf
Lutheran CORE steering committee vice chair

Rev. Wolf:
Thank you for all that you are doing.  Keep us informed.  I would love to come but it's not in the cards at this time.  Maybe there will be a few vans going from the Minnesota area, do some car-pooling.   I will pray for this meeting as I have prayed for the CWA.  I will ask others to keep you in their prayers.

Christ have mercy
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN

But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

James_W_Diamond

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2007, 12:35:50 PM »
We are already hearing and we will hear more requests that we engage in "listening" or "holy conversions".  Quite aside from the fact these phrases are offensive in themselves to us (like calling an adult woman a girl), we need to be frank with ourselves on what "listening" means to the pro gay group: Barking at the bigoted dumb bunnies until we give in, give up or go away.  In many cases Christians who believe the faith as classically proclaimed may nonetheless need to participate because it may help keep a parish or synod from changing to nontraditional beliefs, may be a witness to undecided people or may be required for reasons of personal conscience (e.g. If I don't speak, I can not complain if I am not heard.)  Others, e.g someone in a liberal parish in a 5 to 1 liberal synod with a bishop like Bp Payne, may not bother because it is a waste of time (unless you suffer from low blood pressure).

The last round of listening in the ELCA on sexuality was led by none other than my own bishop, Margaret Payne, who was obviously not picked by Bishop Hanson et al as an impartial leader but rather to ensure that the gay advocates controlled the process which they did.  Even so the church at large said no, so instead of respecting the verdict, they are holding another round of listening to bark at us bigoted dumb bunnies until we give in, give up or go away.  Either way there should be no illusions about what listening is in the ELCA.

The problem with the pro-gay group from my viewpoint is NOT sexuality. Rather it is their positions on the source and nature of authority in the church.  I was taught and confess that the overriding source of authority in the church is the scriptures which are assisted by tradition in every case where tradition does not contradict scripture.  I was taught and confess that no church leader or church council has the authority to overrule the scriptures or the received traditions of the church which support and amplify the Bible.  If neither the Pope nor an ecumenical council like Ephesus or Nicea has the authority to change scriptural doctrines and practices, obviously the idea the CWA does have this authority is ludicrous. The presiding bishop's comment at the Rocky Mountain Synod reported in our Forum newsletter a year or so ago that he was not going to let the policies of the ELCA be determined by seven passages of scripture scandalized me: If that is  sola scriptura, I am a large standard poodle.

So now the question is where do we go?  Can the ELCA be kept as an orthodox Lutheran church with doctrine based on sola scriptura and enforced?  If it can be saved, we have duty to try.  Otherwise the question is where do we go and how do we get there?

Vern

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2007, 12:51:21 PM »
Pastor Wolf,

On August 23rd at 7:00 pm I wil be at the St Paul area meeting of WordAlone at Roseville Lutheran Church.

Vern

Vern

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2007, 02:13:55 PM »
I have a request. As I noted to Erma Wolf I am going to a WordAlone meeting on the 23rd, Could some of you please help me with some questions to ask about the convention and the future of the ELCA?

Thank You,

Vern

GoCubsGo!

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2007, 03:01:49 PM »
I think we need to consider an alternative to the ELCA and the LC-MS that would serve well those congregations and pastors who are not willing to abide a church that blesses same sex unions (or marriages-which isn't far behind this step) or that ordains openly gay persons living in same sex relationships.

I said this earlier but I'll say it here.  What we need is an existing entity of the ELCA, perhaps a synod, to take the lead in forming a new body.   This new body would begin to be formed under the thought that it may not be needed--perhaps the ELCA will turn back--but would begin forming in order to give those who would be disaffected by a change in policy a place to go.

No offense to Word Alone or Lutheran CORE but this body, to my mind, would need to be Evangelical Catholic in character.  But alas I am dreaming again--Cubs fans just can't help it.

Pr. Jerry

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2007, 03:11:46 PM »
So now that it's over...
What stories will we take out of this CWA (ya' know...  Those memorable moments that made you laugh, cry, shout aloud in frustration)?  :o

It's probably bad form to quote from one's own post, but...

The two defining images of the assembly for me have to be:
1) The caucasian woman pastor from Minneapolis who proceded to lecture the assembly on "African-American" images of the Holy Spirit, namely a rabbit (?), and her proclamation that she didn't want to lock it in a cage... (And the accompanying Elmer Fudd allusions that "popped their head up" on this forum...)

2) Retiring Bishop Landahl throwing a temper tantrum on the assembly floor, accusing the CWA of ignoring his synod, and begging for "something to work with."  In my humble oppinion, any CWA that can make him that frustrated cannot be "all" bad...

I think between those two images, you have a good representation of where the ELCA is and how much work we've got to do...  Not to mention the fact that they give us endless chuckles...

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

StevenW

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 04:55:55 PM »
I said this earlier but I'll say it here.  What we need is an existing entity of the ELCA, perhaps a synod, to take the lead in forming a new body.

Just a general question.
How is a non-geographic Synod organized?  I'm thinking of rules and procedures according to the ELCA constitution and polices.  IMHO, I can't see why a non-georgraphic Synod couldn't be formed (I'm sure there might be some rules saying NO).  Afterall, we have Slovak Zion (formed at the merger at the request of the US State Department to keep contacts with fellow Lutherans in the former Eastern bloc, according to a colleague).  The LCMS has the English District.


No offense to Word Alone or Lutheran CORE but this body, to my mind, would need to be Evangelical Catholic in character.  But alas I am dreaming again--Cubs fans just can't help it.
I agree.  While I don't agree with STS (personal, selfish reasons) I would "sign on" to this idea.

Hey, I'm in NE Ohio where Cleveland doesn't have much luck with sports.  Just enough to get excited about playoffs and finals and BAM.  All over.   ;)

Vern

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2007, 04:59:47 PM »
I think we need to consider an alternative to the ELCA and the LC-MS that would serve well those congregations and pastors who are not willing to abide a church that blesses same sex unions (or marriages-which isn't far behind this step) or that ordains openly gay persons living in same sex relationships.

I said this earlier but I'll say it here.  What we need is an existing entity of the ELCA, perhaps a synod, to take the lead in forming a new body.   This new body would begin to be formed under the thought that it may not be needed--perhaps the ELCA will turn back--but would begin forming in order to give those who would be disaffected by a change in policy a place to go.

No offense to Word Alone or Lutheran CORE but this body, to my mind, would need to be Evangelical Catholic in character.  But alas I am dreaming again--Cubs fans just can't help it.
I think I disagree that WordAlone can't get the job done. To me they need to start doing a better job of getting the Word out In St Paul, for example, they are awfully shy. Or shoud I see they must be "Bold in the Spirit!"

Vern

GoCubsGo!

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »
Quote
I think I disagree that WordAlone can't get the job done. To me they need to start doing a better job of getting the Word out In St Paul, for example, they are awfully shy. Or shoud I see they must be "Bold in the Spirit!"

Vern
Quote

My point was not to say that Word Alone or Lutheran CORE are not up to the task of forming a Lutheran Body of some sort.  My problem is that I disagree with too much of Word Alone's theology/ecclesiology to consider it as a place for me.  And Lutheran CORE is a group that seems committed to staying in the ELCA and I am unsure of its thoughts on ecclesiolgy as well.  Perhaps one of these groups may coalesce into something viable for me.  But at this point I suspect that neither group would be Evangelical Catholic enough for me.

GoCubsGo!

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2007, 05:40:44 PM »
I said this earlier but I'll say it here.  What we need is an existing entity of the ELCA, perhaps a synod, to take the lead in forming a new body.

Just a general question.
How is a non-geographic Synod organized?  I'm thinking of rules and procedures according to the ELCA constitution and polices.  IMHO, I can't see why a non-georgraphic Synod couldn't be formed (I'm sure there might be some rules saying NO).  Afterall, we have Slovak Zion (formed at the merger at the request of the US State Department to keep contacts with fellow Lutherans in the former Eastern bloc, according to a colleague).  The LCMS has the English District.


No offense to Word Alone or Lutheran CORE but this body, to my mind, would need to be Evangelical Catholic in character.  But alas I am dreaming again--Cubs fans just can't help it.
I agree.  While I don't agree with STS (personal, selfish reasons) I would "sign on" to this idea.

Hey, I'm in NE Ohio where Cleveland doesn't have much luck with sports.  Just enough to get excited about playoffs and finals and BAM.  All over.   ;)


A non-geographic synod might work or at least be a viable alternative to what we have now.  I wonder if Augsburg Fortress would publish a new hymnal just for one synod?  (Despite a few thngs to recommend it, I abhor the ELW.

djbaer

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 05:47:49 PM »
There are many (hopefully many) synods that remain faithful and are led by faithful leaders.

Would there be a way for congregations to affiliate with a synod that is nearby and remains faithful?

I think these problems in the ELCA would be much harder to deal with if I was not in the South Dakota Synod.

Maybe entire synods could unite in a fellowship of confessional synods.




Charles_Austin

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Re: So now that it's over...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 06:16:26 PM »
David Baer writes:
There are many (hopefully many) synods that remain faithful and are led by faithful leaders.
Would there be a way for congregations to affiliate with a synod that is nearby and remains faithful?
I think these problems in the ELCA would be much harder to deal with if I was not in the South Dakota Synod.
Maybe entire synods could unite in a fellowship of confessional synods.

I comment:
California Brian noted it somewhere here. Most of the votes at the Assembly were by large majorities. The Presiding Bishop and Secretary Almen got numerous standing ovations. There was high praise for the new initiative on Lutherans reading the Bible and for the social statement on education (really a bigger deal for the whole life of the church than the gay clergy issue). The mood at the assembly, even during discussion of sexuality, was genial, and often light, more so than in Orlando.
The idea of calling some synods "faithful" and others something else would be abhorrent to how we do things in the ELCA.
If the fact that some places in the ELCA "allow" gay pastors is the make-or-break deal, then the disagreeing congregations should probably have left some time ago, for we have had such pastors - in committed relationships - for a long time. If the fact that we are now a bit more open about it, well, folks will have to decide.
Somewhere out there, perhaps in South Dakota, there are congregations "led" by someone who is not ordained, a person who preaches, presides, baptizes, and teaches under "license" or some such silly thing. I find this practice unbliblical, unconfessional, un-Lutheran, and an offense to larger Christendom for it misrepresents what we are.
I would not go to a church led by such a person. But if, for the sake of the mission of a congregation, this happens; I'm not going to leave the ELCA over it.
Can a person in South Dakota take the same stance if a congregation in California or New Jersey is led by a gay or lesbian pastor who is committed to a partner?