Author Topic: Islamophobia  (Read 1142 times)

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4328
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2021, 07:46:46 AM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

So, you would oppose a Jewish Holocaust survivor from speaking about her experiences for fear the students might get an "unbalanced" view of Nazis?

DeHall1

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2021, 08:24:14 AM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

Comparing a Nobel Peace prize winning author (2018) to Guantanamo prisoners is common sense?

Nadia Murad was awarded the Nobel prize for her efforts to end the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war, and is a leading advocate for survivors of sexual exploitation and genocide.  Heaven forbid she be allowed to speak to students.

Good grief, indeed.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13254
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2021, 08:27:29 AM »
The article has been updated with a statement from the Toronto District School Board.

In a statement to Fox News Digital on Sunday, the Toronto District School Board said the event is not yet canceled and Murad's book is being reviewed.

"The event has not been cancelled," spokesman Ryan Bird told Fox. "Earlier this month, an opinion that did not reflect the position of the Toronto District School Board was shared with the organizer of a book club prior to staff having an opportunity to read the book – something that is routinely done before giving them to students. Staff are currently reading the book and anticipate being able to add it to the list of titles used in the corresponding course(s) very shortly. We have apologized to Ms. Murad for this error and believe she has a powerful story to share with our students."

This is a far better outcome. 

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19177
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2021, 08:34:36 AM »
Maybe I wasn't clear on the whole of the matter. I personally, me, myself, believe that Nadia Murad should speak anywhere she wants to speak and I have no doubt she has many invitations. Good.
But I also understand why a school board or local area might decide she is not an appropriate speaker for that crowd.
But the update says she may speak to the Toronto students, so perhaps Fox news was too eager to find another example of "cancel culture."
I agree that the original article could have been premature. Or it could be that the people in charge are reconsidering or backpedalling, having had some light shed on the issue. Either way, Fox News was simply reporting on something, with attribution, that The Telegraph reported and the New York Post picked up. So maybe you were too eager to find another example of Fox News doing something bad. 

DeHall1

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2021, 08:36:55 AM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!
But again, no guest speaker is brought in to speak in an objective way. A textbook can attempt that. The problem here is that the schools have decided what the children should think about Islam and nixed a speaker who wouldn’t further that goal.

On the issue of schools in the US, people who objected to Toni Morrison novels for featuring pornographic scenes lost that particular battle. She is an award winning novelist, so Hugh school kids can be exposed to her work even if some of it requires context or guidance. This speaker is also a international, award winning writer and speaker. So why the fear of kids hearing her story?


I think I should start a teaching tour among Lutheran congregation about my and my friends’ experiences with Missouri Synod Lutherans. I’m sure I could conduct myself as an expert and present them in the worst possible light and let others try and correct any biased, but true statements I might make about that denomination.

If you were as accomplished as Nadia Murad, I’m sure some would even attend.  Alas….

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14692
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2021, 10:45:37 AM »
We already have a large number of people, most of them Missouri Synod Lutherans, some of them ELCA Refugees, who are presenting themselves as experts on the ELCA, and reporting their experiences in the ELCA in the most unfavorable light. Their platforms are websites and sometimes a discussion blog like that “quest“ sign, where three or four people compete with each other to say how terrible things are. Their target at times even includes their own synod.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 03:50:33 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

DeHall1

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2021, 12:30:20 PM »
We already have a large number of people, most of them Missouri Synod Lutherans, some of them ELCA Refugees, who are presenting themselves as experts on the ELCA, and reporting their experiences in the ELCA in the most unfavorable light. Their platforms are websites and sometimes a discussion blog like that “quest“ sign, where three or four people compete with each other to say how terrible things are. Their target at times even includes their own send it.

Have these "large number of people" been severely victimized, tortured, and raped by Islamic extremists?
Won the Nobel Peace prize?
Were they scheduled for speaking events in the Toronto School district, had the event cancelled, then have A Canadian school forced to apologise for their actions?

If not, what does this comment have to do with the subject at hand?

Randy Bosch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2021, 12:47:10 PM »
Charles Austin, having swung and missed regarding the thread subject, employs the typical distraction of trying to divert discussion to his favorite often-whipped horse, the LCMS.
Do not fall into the pit.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44240
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2021, 01:13:26 PM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

So, you would oppose a Jewish Holocaust survivor from speaking about her experiences for fear the students might get an "unbalanced" view of Nazis?


If her "unbalanced" view was against all Germans, she might not be allowed to speak.


Sort of like a lady who told me that she would never buy a Japanese made care because they killed her first husband in WWII.


Perhaps like the word, "Nazis," we might use "al-Qaeda" or even "Taliban" to separate the evil ones from the ordinary Muslims.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19177
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2021, 01:15:14 PM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

So, you would oppose a Jewish Holocaust survivor from speaking about her experiences for fear the students might get an "unbalanced" view of Nazis?


If her "unbalanced" view was against all Germans, she might not be allowed to speak.


Sort of like a lady who told me that she would never buy a Japanese made care because they killed her first husband in WWII.


Perhaps like the word, "Nazis," we might use "al-Qaeda" or even "Taliban" to separate the evil ones from the ordinary Muslims.
I believe she was there to talk about ISIS and the fear was that her audience would then learn to think of Muslims in terms of ISIS.

DeHall1

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2021, 01:48:32 PM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

So, you would oppose a Jewish Holocaust survivor from speaking about her experiences for fear the students might get an "unbalanced" view of Nazis?


If her "unbalanced" view was against all Germans, she might not be allowed to speak.


Sort of like a lady who told me that she would never buy a Japanese made care because they killed her first husband in WWII.


Perhaps like the word, "Nazis," we might use "al-Qaeda" or even "Taliban" to separate the evil ones from the ordinary Muslims.
I believe she was there to talk about ISIS and the fear was that her audience would then learn to think of Muslims in terms of ISIS.
Nadia Murad's book goes into detail about her escape thanks to the help of a Sunni Muslim family, who risked their lives to get her to safety.

So, I guess it depends on who you support (ISIS/ISIL or the Sunni Muslim family) to detemine that the book is Islamophobic.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44240
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2021, 03:35:48 PM »
Missed it again, Pastor Kirchner.
Let me be more clear.
What the woman experienced under Islamic extremism was unjust, terrible and an abomination.
What prisoners at Guantanamo was let us stipulate, just, not as bad as being tortured and raped and not an abomination.
STILL, neither the woman nor the prisoners of the US are likely to speak in an objective way about who gave them those experiences nor are they likely to have a balanced view of the belief and/or governmental system under which they had those experiences.
Good grief, we have to strain hard here for some common sense!

So, you would oppose a Jewish Holocaust survivor from speaking about her experiences for fear the students might get an "unbalanced" view of Nazis?


If her "unbalanced" view was against all Germans, she might not be allowed to speak.


Sort of like a lady who told me that she would never buy a Japanese made care because they killed her first husband in WWII.


Perhaps like the word, "Nazis," we might use "al-Qaeda" or even "Taliban" to separate the evil ones from the ordinary Muslims.
I believe she was there to talk about ISIS and the fear was that her audience would then learn to think of Muslims in terms of ISIS.
Nadia Murad's book goes into detail about her escape thanks to the help of a Sunni Muslim family, who risked their lives to get her to safety.

So, I guess it depends on who you support (ISIS/ISIL or the Sunni Muslim family) to determine that the book is Islamophobic.


Considering how many innocent Asians were attacked because some believed that the Chinese created the COVID virus, why shouldn't we be fearful that honest and true statements about ISIS extremists and their evil ways would not result in attacks against peaceful Muslims (and Sikhs who also wear turbans).
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14692
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2021, 03:56:48 PM »
My point was that life experiences might cause some people to have a unbalanced view of a certain entity, whether civil or ecclesial. Some gay and lesbian young people have committed suicide after experiences with those who attempted to “turn” them heterosexual in the name of Jesus.
Would the parents of one of those suicides be good people to make an presentation on conservative Christianity?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19177
    • View Profile
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2021, 04:30:19 PM »
My point was that life experiences might cause some people to have a unbalanced view of a certain entity, whether civil or ecclesial. Some gay and lesbian young people have committed suicide after experiences with those who attempted to “turn” them heterosexual in the name of Jesus.
Would the parents of one of those suicides be good people to make an presentation on conservative Christianity?
No, but they might be a good place to look for a talk on suicide, the history of gay rights, or some other topic. The school bringing this person in to talk about the nature of Islam generally. Her talk has more to do with women’s rights and struggle with oppression. ISIS just happens to be the backdrop to her story.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13254
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Islamophobia
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2021, 05:37:49 PM »
My point was that life experiences might cause some people to have a unbalanced view of a certain entity, whether civil or ecclesial. Some gay and lesbian young people have committed suicide after experiences with those who attempted to “turn” them heterosexual in the name of Jesus.
Would the parents of one of those suicides be good people to make an presentation on conservative Christianity?
No, but they might be a good place to look for a talk on suicide, the history of gay rights, or some other topic. The school bringing this person in to talk about the nature of Islam generally. Her talk has more to do with women’s rights and struggle with oppression. ISIS just happens to be the backdrop to her story.

a) I too think ISIS is the backdrop and oppression of women is the front story.
b) This is in Canada.  I don't know if we have Canadians on this board or looking in, but Canadians tend to be more sane, more balanced, and less polarized by far than Americans.  Of course there are less of them, and it's really cold a lot of the time.  But still.
c) I don't know if anyone on this forum knows a lot of Muslims and/or Christians from predominantly Muslim countries, but oppression and persecution of Christians is not at all rare in the Muslim world.  Many of the people with whose baptisms and ministries I've been involved have deep personal experience of that persecution.  It's no light thing.  And yet those same people would encourage us to work in areas of mercy and community outreach with Muslim leaders, and join in seasonal festivities as signs of our common humanity and American citizenship.  In other words, those whom you might think would be most Islamophobic are not.

Dave Benke