Author Topic: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses  (Read 3293 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2021, 03:47:50 PM »
Peter writes::
The topic was not about vaccines specifically but about shutdowns, which Charles claimed were no big deal. Parents should just fix childhood trauma. Businesses should just go out of business. It is that easy, and a small price to pay for making him feel safer.

I comment:
I did not say it was no big deal. I did say that parents have to deal with what their children face no matter what it is that the children are facing. Life, death, pandemic. These years facing that is part of parenting.
And I did not say that businesses should “just“ go out of business. They need to adapt. And we as a society need to do what needs to be done to help them. This was done, through – OMG! No! – Government relief action. That’s another way we help our neighbors. My son was laid off early on. The aid the government provided was invaluable in helping him to get through the last two years and plan for the future. Without the additional unemployment benefits and extending unemployment he and millions of others would have been in very dire straits.
This is not to “make me feel safer,” Peter, and for you to say that is a personal insult.
As noted somewhere upstream, these efforts to mitigate the impact of the pandemic are those drawn up by our best public health experts. Our best. Not people with no knowledge of medicine, epidemics, or public health. Furthermore, these are people whose jobs it is to protect public health. We pay them to do that. You can find others, and you can dismiss our paid experts (and the researchers and doctors who advise them) if you wish. But I think that would be a foolish thing to do.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

Dana Lockhart

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2021, 03:52:06 PM »
I also had covid before there were vaccines available. And thought long and hard before getting vaccinated. And here's the thing: the vaccines offer superior protection than any kind of "natural immunity." Covid re-infections are real. Many people with long covid have experienced symptom relief after getting vaccinated. Based on the evidence we have, not exempting people previously diagnosed with covid from vaccine mandates is perfectly logical. They are not equivalent levels of protection. And presumably your friend leaves the house at some point, even if it is not going to the office, so a vaccine mandate is in the government and his company's best interest.

Who are you to make that decision on his behalf?  Is it because you "thought long and hard about it?"  Do you think he didn't?  Do you think if perhaps he read your conclusory assertions here he would say "oh, gosh -- I hadn't considered that Dana Lockhart disagrees with me, perhaps I should submit to the vaccine after all!" 

I mean, you didn't even mention his health issues, but being entirely fair, it's not really any of your business what they are and so I haven't told you, which leaves you a little bit in the dark.  My point is, that doesn't seem to have stopped you from judging him and his choice.

Quote
As the Supreme Court found in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, compulsory vaccine mandates are constitutional. That does not mean they are good policy, and there is a question over who has the power to enact them (states vs the federal government). But there is no automatic right to refuse a vaccine.

The Court in Jacobson found that it was the right of a STATE to enact a vaccine mandate because the LEGISLATURE directly enacted the law within the state's police powers.  It did not say an unelected federal bureaucracy has the right to impose a mandate not contemplated by the enabling legislation, much less that private employers may go beyond it to compel employees to have chemicals injected into their bodies against their will.  Since nobody has said there is an "automatic right to refuse a vaccine," that seems to be a red herring to me.  The state legislature of Georgia has not imposed a vaccine mandate and this man's employer is basically forcing him to get one or be fired from his job, in the name of workplace safety for a workplace he does not attend.  You say above he will at some point go outside his house.  Well, obviously. What that has to do with workplace safety is beyond me, but you and Pastor Stoffregen seem eager to tell other people what to do under pain of starvation and financial ruin, so I suppose such details don't matter.

I ask again -- where did Christ teach you to starve your neighbor to make yourself feel safer?  Put the shoe on the other foot and justify your insistence that this man get injected against his will.  Until you do that, your entire worldview is unchristian and unbefitting a Christian.  I am vaccinated and I wish others to be vaccinated, but I'm not going to insist my friend get vaccinated over my irrational fears.  I trust that my vaccine works.

I have outlined my views of vaccination as a civic duty, akin to paying taxes, already in this thread. Framing it as a personal choice is a rhetorical ploy… I understand why it serves your views, I just don't think it represents the reality of the situation.

Has your friend been advised by his medical professional that getting vaccinated would imperil his health? If so, then there should be an exemption available to him.  But for the vast majority of people, vaccination should be a considered a duty of citizenship. Akin to taxes and jury duty and registering for the selective service and all other things we have to do as citizens, even (especially?) when we would prefer not to. As to the mandates: they will be litigated in the courts, but it is obvious as a matter of policy that the intention is to get as many people vaccinated as possible. Whether the courts will uphold the Biden's administration's preferred means is an open question. I was merely pointing out that, as a matter of law and policy, vaccines have long been considered compulsory rather than optional.

And our employers have the right to establish their own polices. There is no right to a job. I don't desire anyone to lose their job or face financial ruin… it just perplexes me that vaccines have long been a condition of employment for millions of people, that this has been uncontroversial, and it just happens to be THIS vaccine that people are digging their heels in about. Ok. Dig your heels in. But you are not being any more persecuted if your employer fires you for doing so than if you are dismissed for not following through with any other job requirement.

Look: it's clear it doesn't matter who says that "natural immunity" is not equivalent to vaccination, as you have already rejected it out of hand. Things were less clear 8 months ago when I signed up to get jabbed… science does take time… but the picture is much clearer now, which is why previous infection is not considered by any health authority as equivalent to vaccination. So it's not "Dana Lockhart disagrees with me," but rather "just about every public health authority in the nation looked at this question and came to a different conclusion." But hey, what do they know?

Screaming, "but I don't wanna do it" is petulant. It's childish. It's anti-social. Pay your taxes, show up for jury duty, and get your shots. It's not hard.

The beautiful thing about living in a free country is literally no one has to care what your view of vaccine mandates is, or what you think is childish or anti-social.  No one has to agree with your view of who is or is not a public health expert.  No one has to care that you falsely accuse your neighbor of using a "rhetorical ploy" by "framing" vaccination as a personal choice, as if people are being dishonest.

No one has to care.  And I don't.  Your judgments are noted.  Ugly as they are, you are entitled to them.  My judgments are different.  I think you and Pastor Stoffregen and those like you are the unchristian ones because you seek to compel your neighbor to act to dispel your own fears.  You don't have to care about that either, because we live in a free country where I am free to get vaccinated and encourage my entire family to do so, and encourage my friends to do so, while still respecting the rights -- and the privacy, so I will decline your prying questions about his medical issues -- of this particular friend and those similarly situated.  And you all are free to call your neighbor names and accuse me and him and those like me and him of dishonesty.

Despite what Pastor Hannah seems to think......

Anti-vaxing serves to discredit Biden and the Democrats. For many that seems to be what it's all about. Vote against Biden three years early.

You are right. Cooperate now for the public's health and vote your choices with your ballot when the time comes.

.....accusing your neighbor of making this about politics and attempting to force their compliance is uncharitable and slanderous.  None of you give your neighbor the slightest benefit of any doubt.  You are all therefore liars and ought to repent.  But beyond that you are fools who think insulting people will get them to agree with you.  That is, you are not only uncharitable and slanderous and therefore wrong, but in fact you are also ineffective and chase people from your own cause.  That is true whether your cause is to help more people decide to get vaccinated or to simply control them.  The result is the same -- you make people not like you very much because you boss them around and turn up your elitist noses to avoid the stench of those who are beneath you.  You should all repent.

You won't, because you still think you are the ones to whom Christian duty is owed and my friend is the one being a bad Christian.  But you should. It's easy to think of one's self as the good samaritan while ignoring that you are the ones leaving Jesus bleeding in the ditch.

Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.

David Garner

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2021, 03:59:41 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dana Lockhart

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2021, 04:18:21 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.

Against my better judgement…

Somewhat rare? Are you kidding? Ever registered a kid for daycare? School? Summer camp?

My daughter's pediatricians office gets so many requests for vaccination records it is literally "press 4" on the main menu of their phone tree. You press it, record your kid's name, and they mail it to you within 2 business days.

I have had to prove I was vaccinated at every stage of my life… school, high school, college, graduate school, seminary. For jobs. For volunteer positions. My mother just got a reminder from the local high school that my all juniors have to provide proof of meningitis vaccination, so she will have to prove my niece (who she is raising) got that vaccine.

I have friends who work for companies that REQUIRE the flu shot every year. As a condition of employment. No flu shot, no job.

And none of this has really ever been that controversial. It's just THIS vaccine that sets people off. Why?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 04:23:53 PM by Dana Lockhart »

David Garner

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2021, 04:29:46 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.

Against my better judgement…

Somewhat rare? Are you kidding? Ever registered a kid for daycare? School? Summer camp?

My daughter's pediatricians office gets so many requests for vaccination records it is literally "press 4" on the main menu of their phone tree. You press it, record your kid's name, and they mail it to you within 2 business days.

I have had to prove I was vaccinated at every stage of my life… school, high school, college, graduate school, seminary. For jobs. For volunteer positions. My mother just got a reminder from the local high school that my all juniors have to provide proof of meningitis vaccination, so she will have to prove my niece (who she is raising) got that vaccine.

And none of this has really ever been that controversial. It's just THIS vaccine that sets people off. Why?

1)  You suck at ignoring people; and

2)  You persist in pretending others lack experience when in fact they merely disagree with you.  I've spoken on this very forum about registering my daughter for college, and though we did not have to request exemptions because she had every vaccine they required (and she also had the COVID-19 vaccine, which they do not), the exemptions were really easy to get.

Which job have you ever held that required you to show proof of vaccination?  Because I've literally never had that happen, and I've worked at a wide variety of places.  Was it a private job?  Did you work from home exclusively?  Could you demonstrate immunity to the disease (when my daughter registered for college, she had to show proof of a chicken pox vaccine OR proof of the disease)? 

Etc.  People other than you have thought this through.  You aren't the only one who has considered these matters.  You aren't the smartest guy in the room.  So perhaps your better judgment would best be used to stop speaking to other people as if you were.

To answer your last question directly, this is a brand new vaccine, and the variants of it have only recently been FDA approved.  It was fast-tracked in record time.  I'm glad it was and I'm glad they're available.  I got 2 jabs of Moderna and I'm still deciding whether I want a booster or not.  But I don't pretend, for example, African Americans are petulant and childish because they remember Tuskegee and don't trust the government and people like you who call them names.  I'd wager they couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. And I bet you wouldn't tell them they're petulant and childish to their face, either.  That has its own side effect.  It tends to make a man's nose hurt.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dana Lockhart

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2021, 04:46:42 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.

Against my better judgement…

Somewhat rare? Are you kidding? Ever registered a kid for daycare? School? Summer camp?

My daughter's pediatricians office gets so many requests for vaccination records it is literally "press 4" on the main menu of their phone tree. You press it, record your kid's name, and they mail it to you within 2 business days.

I have had to prove I was vaccinated at every stage of my life… school, high school, college, graduate school, seminary. For jobs. For volunteer positions. My mother just got a reminder from the local high school that my all juniors have to provide proof of meningitis vaccination, so she will have to prove my niece (who she is raising) got that vaccine.

And none of this has really ever been that controversial. It's just THIS vaccine that sets people off. Why?

1)  You suck at ignoring people; and

2)  You persist in pretending others lack experience when in fact they merely disagree with you.  I've spoken on this very forum about registering my daughter for college, and though we did not have to request exemptions because she had every vaccine they required (and she also had the COVID-19 vaccine, which they do not), the exemptions were really easy to get.

Which job have you ever held that required you to show proof of vaccination?  Because I've literally never had that happen, and I've worked at a wide variety of places.  Was it a private job?  Did you work from home exclusively?  Could you demonstrate immunity to the disease (when my daughter registered for college, she had to show proof of a chicken pox vaccine OR proof of the disease)? 

Etc.  People other than you have thought this through.  You aren't the only one who has considered these matters.  You aren't the smartest guy in the room.  So perhaps your better judgment would best be used to stop speaking to other people as if you were.

To answer your last question directly, this is a brand new vaccine, and the variants of it have only recently been FDA approved.  It was fast-tracked in record time.  I'm glad it was and I'm glad they're available.  I got 2 jabs of Moderna and I'm still deciding whether I want a booster or not.  But I don't pretend, for example, African Americans are petulant and childish because they remember Tuskegee and don't trust the government and people like you who call them names.  I'd wager they couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. And I bet you wouldn't tell them they're petulant and childish to their face, either.  That has its own side effect.  It tends to make a man's nose hurt.

So which is it, mandates are rare or ubiquitous?

I spoke on the thread above that I was required to prove vaccination status for CPE, as one example. Others include two previous university positions (where exemptions were decidedly not easy to get, and in one impossible as it involved foreign travel). I wouldn't say my current position requires that I prove I am vaccinated (except to serve as a chaperone on mission trips), but covid vaccination is an expectation for all church employees and lay pastoral care ministers… we just take people's word that they got it. However, is someone did decline to get it, it would be extremely difficult to continue serving in any ministerial capacity.

And of course others have thought this through. That is the reason why OSHA adopted the mandates to begin with. Along with countless private and public employers. And religious institutions.

And I am not the smartest guy in the room… obviously you are. And the most ethical. Compassionate. And least condescending.

If only I could be so virtuous.





« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 04:57:16 PM by Dana Lockhart »

Jim Butler

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2021, 05:09:33 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.

Against my better judgement…

Somewhat rare? Are you kidding? Ever registered a kid for daycare? School? Summer camp?

My daughter's pediatricians office gets so many requests for vaccination records it is literally "press 4" on the main menu of their phone tree. You press it, record your kid's name, and they mail it to you within 2 business days.

I have had to prove I was vaccinated at every stage of my life… school, high school, college, graduate school, seminary. For jobs. For volunteer positions. My mother just got a reminder from the local high school that my all juniors have to provide proof of meningitis vaccination, so she will have to prove my niece (who she is raising) got that vaccine.

And none of this has really ever been that controversial. It's just THIS vaccine that sets people off. Why?

1)  You suck at ignoring people; and

2)  You persist in pretending others lack experience when in fact they merely disagree with you.  I've spoken on this very forum about registering my daughter for college, and though we did not have to request exemptions because she had every vaccine they required (and she also had the COVID-19 vaccine, which they do not), the exemptions were really easy to get.

Which job have you ever held that required you to show proof of vaccination?  Because I've literally never had that happen, and I've worked at a wide variety of places.  Was it a private job?  Did you work from home exclusively?  Could you demonstrate immunity to the disease (when my daughter registered for college, she had to show proof of a chicken pox vaccine OR proof of the disease)? 

Etc.  People other than you have thought this through.  You aren't the only one who has considered these matters.  You aren't the smartest guy in the room.  So perhaps your better judgment would best be used to stop speaking to other people as if you were.

To answer your last question directly, this is a brand new vaccine, and the variants of it have only recently been FDA approved.  It was fast-tracked in record time.  I'm glad it was and I'm glad they're available.  I got 2 jabs of Moderna and I'm still deciding whether I want a booster or not.  But I don't pretend, for example, African Americans are petulant and childish because they remember Tuskegee and don't trust the government and people like you who call them names.  I'd wager they couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. And I bet you wouldn't tell them they're petulant and childish to their face, either.  That has its own side effect.  It tends to make a man's nose hurt.

So which is it, mandates are rare or ubiquitous?

I spoke on the thread above that I was required to prove vaccination status for CPE, as one example. Others include two previous university positions (where exemptions were decidedly not easy to get, and in one impossible as it involved foreign travel). I wouldn't say my current position requires that I prove I am vaccinated (except to serve as a chaperone on mission trips), but covid vaccination is an expectation for all church employees and lay pastoral care ministers… we just take people's word that they got it. However, is someone did decline to get it, it would be extremely difficult to continue serving in any ministerial capacity.

And of course others have thought this through. That is the reason why OSHA adopted the mandates to begin with. Along with countless private and public employers. And religious institutions.

And I am not the smartest guy in the room… obviously you are. And the most ethical. Compassionate. And least condescending.

If only I could be so virtuous.

When I worked as a summer camp counselor, I had to give proof of vaccination for several diseases. I had to get some blood test that demonstrated that I had the antibodies in my blood.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

peter_speckhard

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2021, 05:11:43 PM »
I have no particular issue with being vaccinated. Yet I feel no urge to insist that other people get vaccinated. I certainly don’t think anyone owes me an explanation for why they don’t want to be vaccinated, and since the few cases I know of (imagine not bothering to share or ask about vaccination stays!) are of people I know to be thoughtful, informed, and caring, I assume their reasons are good. They don’t question my choice, at least not in conversation with me. Seems to work really well and avoid a lot of anger and anxiety.

David Garner

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2021, 05:42:24 PM »
Well, that virtual temper tantrum sure went a long way to convincing me that I was wrong to view your position as petulant, childish and anti-social.

I have said nothing about Christian duty. I have spoken of civic duties. The kind we all have to preform, whether we want to or not, as citizens of this country. Vaccine mandates are not new. You have offered no argument of any kind about why vaccination should not be expected of us as citizens. Or employees. You just stomp your feet and fling insults.

You are free to do so. And I am free to ignore you. Which I intend to do from now on. Take care.


Couching well-founded criticisms as "virtual temper tantrums" is likewise dishonest.  I responded to your words.  The ones where you called people like my friend petulant, childish and anti-social to begin with.  Given that vaccine mandates are not typical, and in fact in the history of our country are somewhat rare, I'd think the burden is on you to show why they should be imposed in this case.  Instead, you assume that because they've been done before, rarely, they should in this case, and you give no reasons other than YOU think it is the civic responsibility of citizens in a free country to obey you and those who carry your water.

You probably should ignore me, and I hope you do.  As I said above, your sneering elitism and immoral moralizing is not going to be well met by me.  Perhaps you'll fare better with those whose patience with such prattle has not worn thin.

Against my better judgement…

Somewhat rare? Are you kidding? Ever registered a kid for daycare? School? Summer camp?

My daughter's pediatricians office gets so many requests for vaccination records it is literally "press 4" on the main menu of their phone tree. You press it, record your kid's name, and they mail it to you within 2 business days.

I have had to prove I was vaccinated at every stage of my life… school, high school, college, graduate school, seminary. For jobs. For volunteer positions. My mother just got a reminder from the local high school that my all juniors have to provide proof of meningitis vaccination, so she will have to prove my niece (who she is raising) got that vaccine.

And none of this has really ever been that controversial. It's just THIS vaccine that sets people off. Why?

1)  You suck at ignoring people; and

2)  You persist in pretending others lack experience when in fact they merely disagree with you.  I've spoken on this very forum about registering my daughter for college, and though we did not have to request exemptions because she had every vaccine they required (and she also had the COVID-19 vaccine, which they do not), the exemptions were really easy to get.

Which job have you ever held that required you to show proof of vaccination?  Because I've literally never had that happen, and I've worked at a wide variety of places.  Was it a private job?  Did you work from home exclusively?  Could you demonstrate immunity to the disease (when my daughter registered for college, she had to show proof of a chicken pox vaccine OR proof of the disease)? 

Etc.  People other than you have thought this through.  You aren't the only one who has considered these matters.  You aren't the smartest guy in the room.  So perhaps your better judgment would best be used to stop speaking to other people as if you were.

To answer your last question directly, this is a brand new vaccine, and the variants of it have only recently been FDA approved.  It was fast-tracked in record time.  I'm glad it was and I'm glad they're available.  I got 2 jabs of Moderna and I'm still deciding whether I want a booster or not.  But I don't pretend, for example, African Americans are petulant and childish because they remember Tuskegee and don't trust the government and people like you who call them names.  I'd wager they couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. And I bet you wouldn't tell them they're petulant and childish to their face, either.  That has its own side effect.  It tends to make a man's nose hurt.

So which is it, mandates are rare or ubiquitous?

I spoke on the thread above that I was required to prove vaccination status for CPE, as one example. Others include two previous university positions (where exemptions were decidedly not easy to get, and in one impossible as it involved foreign travel). I wouldn't say my current position requires that I prove I am vaccinated (except to serve as a chaperone on mission trips), but covid vaccination is an expectation for all church employees and lay pastoral care ministers… we just take people's word that they got it. However, is someone did decline to get it, it would be extremely difficult to continue serving in any ministerial capacity.

And of course others have thought this through. That is the reason why OSHA adopted the mandates to begin with. Along with countless private and public employers. And religious institutions.

And I am not the smartest guy in the room… obviously you are. And the most ethical. Compassionate. And least condescending.

If only I could be so virtuous.

Mandates from employers are rare.  Mandates without exceptions are rare.  OSHA mandates are unheard of.  That's why OSHA's mandates have been struck down in the Fifth Circuit, and in my estimation are likely to remain stricken.  The reasoning is pretty much in line with what I've said and not at all in line with what you would have us believe:

"(I)n its fifty-year history, OSHA has issued just ten ETSs. Six were challenged in court; only one survived. The reason for the rarity of this form of emergency action is
simple: courts and the Agency have agreed for generations that '[e]xtraordinary power is delivered to [OSHA] under the emergency provisions of the Occupational Safety and Health Act,' so '[t]hat power should be delicately exercised, and only in those emergency situations which require it.'”

Discussing standing, the Fifth Circuit said "(m)any of the petitioners are covered private employers within the geographical boundaries of this circuit. Their standing to sue is obvious— the Mandate imposes a financial burden upon them by deputizing their participation in OSHA’s regulatory scheme, exposes them to severe financial risk if they refuse or fail to comply, and threatens to decimate their workforces (and business prospects) by forcing unwilling employees to take their shots, take their tests, or hit the road."

Turning to the merits, the Court then said "(w)e begin by stating the obvious. The Occupational Safety and Health Act, which created OSHA, was enacted by Congress to assure Americans 'safe and healthful working conditions and to preserve our human resources.' See 29 U.S.C. § 651 (statement of findings and declaration of purpose and policy). It was not—and likely could not be, under the Commerce Clause and nondelegation doctrine—intended to authorize a workplace safety administration in the deep recesses of the federal bureaucracy to make sweeping pronouncements on matters of public health affecting every member of society in the profoundest of ways."  It went on to say "the Mandate’s strained prescriptions combine to make it the rare government pronouncement that is both overinclusive (applying to employers and employees in virtually all industries and workplaces in America, with little attempt to account for the obvious differences between the risks facing, say, a security guard on a lonely night shift, and a meatpacker working shoulder to shoulder in a cramped warehouse) and underinclusive (purporting to save employees with 99 or more coworkers from a 'grave danger' in the workplace, while making no attempt to shield employees with 98 or fewer coworkers from the very same threat). The Mandate’s stated impetus—a purported 'emergency' that the entire globe has now endured for nearly two years, and which OSHA itself spent nearly two months responding to—is unavailing as well. And its promulgation grossly exceeds OSHA’s statutory authority."  The Court said "rather than a delicately handled scalpel, the Mandate is a one-size- fits-all sledgehammer that makes hardly any attempt to account for differences in workplaces (and workers) that have more than a little bearing on workers’ varying degrees of susceptibility to the supposedly 'grave danger' the Mandate purports to address." 

You should read the whole decision.  You can find it here:

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/21/21-60845-CV0.pdf

It basically lays to waste the very ideas you are espousing -- that the government has the extra-legislative power to order such a mandate by bureaucratic fiat, that the dangers presented by COVID warrant such a mandate, or that it is any sort of "civic duty" to submit to one.  It states expressly that Congress has no authority to legislate police power, as this is a power reserved to the several states. Which means that unless and until the state of Georgia imposes a vaccine mandate that is upheld by the courts, I don't really have to worry much from you and yours. 

Now, obviously, this is not the final word on the matter.  There may be an en banc review, and there certainly will be multidistrict litigation and the Supreme Court will ultimately weigh in.  But acting as if people are deluded for not agreeing with you, and pretending we must have never heard of school systems requiring certain vaccinations for attendance, etc., is hardly a good tack to take.  Delta Airlines is already backing off its own internal mandate.  You can probably guess why -- enough people refused that they did not think it a fight worth having.  Another friend of mine is one of those who refused.  I disagreed with his decision and his reasoning and told him so, but I also walked him through the process of applying for a religious-based exemption, which was ultimately granted before Delta decided actually forcing people to get vaccines is a lot harder than saying you're going to force them to do so.  Other employers will follow suit as they realize their employees are not their possessions, but rather something they need in order for their business to survive.  A number of them are among the plaintiffs in the Fifth Circuit case I cited above.

If you want to convince people to have vaccines, it would be much wiser to actually attempt to convince them instead of calling them names and pretending to wield power that neither you nor the government you would have do your dirty work actually possess.  Nobody has to listen to you.  Nobody has to care what you think.  And when the government oversteps, the courts are there to restrain it.  Thanks be to God.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

David Garner

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2021, 05:46:14 PM »
If you don't believe me on that last part, believe pre-election Joe Biden, who suggested he would never impose a vaccine mandate (he lied), and for this reason:

"That reality may be behind President-elect Biden's statement that he would not support a government mandate that all Americans receive a Covid-19 vaccination. The attempt to implement one - even if supported by science and legal precedent dating back more than a century - could create a groundswell of opposition that would prove counterproductive to public health."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55193939
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

James S. Rustad

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2021, 06:09:58 PM »
A very interesting article on the state of the law on mandatory vaccination:
As the 20th century began, epidemics of infectious diseases such as smallpox remained a recurrent threat. A Massachusetts statute granted city boards of health the authority to require vaccination “when necessary for public health or safety.” In 1902, when smallpox surged in Cambridge, the city’s board of health issued an order pursuant to this authority that required all adults to be vaccinated to halt the disease. The statutory penalty for refusing vaccination was a monetary fine of $5 (about $100 today). There was no provision for actually forcing vaccination on any person.

Henning Jacobson refused vaccination, claiming that he and his son had had bad reactions to earlier vaccinations. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court found it unnecessary to worry about any possible harm from vaccination, because no one could actually be forced to be vaccinated: “If a person should deem it important that vaccination should not be performed in his case, and the authorities should think otherwise, it is not in their power to vaccinate him by force, and the worst that could happen to him under the statute would be the payment of $5.” Jacobson was fined, and he appealed to the US Supreme Court.

SCOTUS upheld the Massachusetts law.

n 1922, in Zucht v King, the only other US Supreme Court decision that addressed immunizations, the Court upheld a city ordinance that prohibited anyone from attending a public or private school without a certificate of smallpox vaccination. Rosalyn Zucht, who refused vaccination, challenged the ordinance as unnecessary after she was excluded from school. The Court did not mention the questions of whether smallpox posed any danger, whether vaccination was necessary, or whether the ordinance was arbitrary or oppressive. Its 3-paragraph opinion noted simply that states can grant cities broad authority to decide when to impose health regulations.

The remainder of the article explores how US jurisprudence has changed since these two cases.  This includes:

Likewise, a state statute that actually forced people to be vaccinated over their refusal, such as Florida’s new “public health emergency” law, would probably be an unconstitutional violation of the right to refuse treatment.

Sooner or later SCOTUS will have to decide a case about one of these state laws.  It will be interesting to see just how SCOTUS explains their decision, whichever way it goes.

Right now, we're seeing the OSHA mandate work its way through the courts.  To date the case has not been going well for OSHA.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2021, 07:18:13 PM »
The reluctance to give arguments against the vaccines might indicate that there are no good arguments. You just pound the table and yell louder.

That judgment is also noted.

Quote
Even though I have my opinion, it doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing other views.

I am now being lazy and assuming when people cannot think of any justification for something millions of their neighbors are doing, such a person is not, in fact, interested in hearing other views, but rather in sniffing their own farts.  If you seriously cannot come up with an example of why someone refusing to get a vaccine is loving his neighbor, then you and your unjustifiably high opinion of your own opinions are the problem.


It is also my belief that it is much, much better to hear arguments directly from "the horse's mouth," than to make up my own about others. A friend, we just recently meant, came over for Thanksgiving dinner, (with a long-time friend). He was taught by his mother, growing up in Texas, that every other denomination except Baptists were cults. He came to question her argument when he attended Catholic masses in the military (because their service times were more convenient for him). Lutherans were also seen as a cult. I've also read articles by Lutherans that are anti-Catholic, which, when talking to Catholics, are untrue or at best, a mischaracterization of their beliefs. Similarly, a Catholic friend asked me about some Lutheran things that a priest had taught him about Lutheranism; and they were mischaracterizations.

Have you considered that you are the one accusing others of cultism here?  The problem is not that you are asking for arguments "from the horse's mouth," but rather that you render judgments without charity.

I'll give you one example, leaving some details out since this is a friend of mine and none of your business, to hopefully illustrate my point.  I know a man who works for a large corporation that is impacted by the vaccine mandates President Biden put into place earlier this year.  He has been told that he must be vaccinated or he will lose his job by year's end.  So this particular company, a government contractor, has gone beyond the mandate to essentially say "get vaccinated or else."  He was given the same justification the mandate does -- it's for "workplace safety."

He has a chronic disease that makes him concerned about the effects of the vaccine.  He's already had COVID, and therefore is not worried about immunity because he already has it.  But the real kicker is this -- he works from home.  That's right -- in the name of workplace safety, they are forcing a guy with chronic diseases who is at least as immune from reinfection as any vaccinated person to get a chemical injected in his body, to protect a workplace he never goes to.

You want to put the burden on him to demonstrate why his refusal to be vaccinated demonstrates love of God and neighbor.  But my question is to you -- why should he have to decide between feeding his family and getting a vaccine he doesn't need and which might harm him to placate your fears?  More to the point, why aren't you viewing HIM as your neighbor instead of viewing yourself as his? 

Worry about your duty to your neighbor, and leave my friend alone.  That's my response.


I could also share anecdotes. A man I know also has a chronic disease. His immune system is compromised. He was one of the first to get the vaccine. He volunteered to be in a study group to see how the vaccines might affect his immune system. He recently had his young children vaccinated as soon as they were eligible. He mostly works at home. He believes in the science (since he has a Ph.D. in one of the sciences) that the vaccines are safe and effective - even for someone like him.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Robert Johnson

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2021, 07:36:16 PM »

I also had covid before there were vaccines available. And thought long and hard before getting vaccinated. And here's the thing: the vaccines offer superior protection than any kind of "natural immunity."

I'm reading a lot of studies that point in the opposite direction; that natural immunity is much more powerful than the "vaccines". (the Moderna type injections are not vaccines in the normal sense of a vaccine -- that is, they are not weakened versions of the disease itself.)

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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2021, 08:20:14 PM »
With this latest mutation out of Africa we may have to get sick again.

Otherwise it is as if we were in a sci-if movie wherein we have all been offered and have taken an immortality pill. We have to take this pill regularly or we die. No one gets ill any more. If you do take the pill you are enlightened and admired. If you don’t take the pill you are not only dead but ridiculed.

With the latest virus mutation we may have to give up any dreams of never being sick again from this virus or related viruses. We may have to get sick again as in the days when the sick would go to work, to school, on airplanes, to church and infect their fellows with no hard feelings from the infected. We may have to coordinate with hospitals and take our children to the modern equivalent of “chickenpox parties” so we achieve herd immunity sooner.

The social disruptions of the vaccination mandates cause suspicion of science, of political parties and of one’s neighbor. It may be the time to get sick and, most likely, recover.

Peter (Jacked up on Moderna, Pfizer, and the Medicine of Immortality in the Holy Eucharist) Garrison
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Re: Fear Is Deadlier Than Viruses
« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2021, 08:21:44 PM »
And I am not the smartest guy in the room… obviously you are. And the most ethical. Compassionate. And least condescending.

If only I could be so virtuous.

Yup, when all else fails, go on the (dishonestly veiled) personal attack.
Don Kirchner

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