Author Topic: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial  (Read 9030 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2021, 02:04:05 PM »
Mr. Garner:
I think have a moral obligation to avoid it where it is at all possible to do so.
Me:
And to vigorously condemn it no matter who does it. The "family" most recently attacked was our whole citizenry, when the insurrectionist of Jan. 6 attacked our congress with murderous intent. And now we are learning just how far up the "food chain" the encouragement for that attack was brought to life. And how much further it might have gone.
Retired ELCA Pastor. You can say liberal Christians are wrong. You can say that you disagree with our interpretation of faith. But when you say we are driven by “culture” or “trendiness,” you prove that you do not listen to us. Luther fared better with Rome.

jebutler

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2021, 02:19:10 PM »
Mr. Garner:
I think have a moral obligation to avoid it where it is at all possible to do so.
Me:
And to vigorously condemn it no matter who does it. The "family" most recently attacked was our whole citizenry, when the insurrectionist of Jan. 6 attacked our congress with murderous intent. And now we are learning just how far up the "food chain" the encouragement for that attack was brought to life. And how much further it might have gone.

"the insurrectionist"? You  mean there was only one? I would have sworn there was a crowd. But you are the Humble Correspondent, so I guess you know what you are talking about.

Be that as it may, do you have any evidence for "murderous intent"?

Please note, Your Humbleness, I am not condoning the actions of those who stormed the capitol building. Those arrested should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, just like all other rioters. But I haven't seen anyone who went there intent on murder.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Dan Fienen

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2021, 02:57:09 PM »
Might I point out that the only one shot and killed on January 6 was an unarmed woman rioter? None of the police were killed by violence?
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Charles Austin

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2021, 03:02:31 PM »
Pastor Butker:
Be that as it may, do you have any evidence for "murderous intent"?

Me:
Does “hang Mike Pence“ ring a bell?
And the “s” left off “insurrectionists”  was obviously a typo. Smart people could see that.  members of the capitol police died as a result of the riot.
Retired ELCA Pastor. You can say liberal Christians are wrong. You can say that you disagree with our interpretation of faith. But when you say we are driven by “culture” or “trendiness,” you prove that you do not listen to us. Luther fared better with Rome.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2021, 03:18:08 PM »
Pastor Butker:
Be that as it may, do you have any evidence for "murderous intent"?

Me:
Does “hang Mike Pence“ ring a bell?
And the “s” left off “insurrectionists”  was obviously a typo. Smart people could see that.  members of the capitol police died as a result of the riot.
So you think someone was deliberately taking advantage of an officer's unrelated medical condition to kill him via riot? That's what it would take for there to be murderous intent involved. There clearly was not.

jebutler

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2021, 03:27:17 PM »
Pastor Butker:

It's "Butler." "Butker" is the last name of the Chiefs kicker. Didn't realize you were such a KC fan.


Be that as it may, do you have any evidence for "murderous intent"?

Me:
Does “hang Mike Pence“ ring a bell?
And the “s” left off “insurrectionists”  was obviously a typo. Smart people could see that.  members of the capitol police died as a result of the riot.

1) Did anyone take rope in to hang Mike Pence? Or were they simply yelling silly things? It was wrong either way, but I don't think for a moment they were at all serious.

2) Are you sure that your dropping of the "s" was a typo? And how should I know that? I assume you write exactly what you mean to say and that you take the time to properly edit your statement. Would you rather I assume you dash off your words without any thought?

3) Please list the names of the "capitol police died as a result of the riot." Please make sure there is more than one name listed since you used the plural. (Or are you going to cry "typo" again? You seem to have a lot of those.) Or is this more "blue sky speculation"? While your at it, can you also give us a list of the names of parents who are protesting the teaching of slavery in schools as you stated a couple of weeks back? I've requested this several times. I'm beginning to think you have no evidence to back up your assertion.


The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2021, 03:42:16 PM »
Pastor Butker:

It's "Butler." "Butker" is the last name of the Chiefs kicker. Didn't realize you were such a KC fan.


Be that as it may, do you have any evidence for "murderous intent"?

Me:
Does “hang Mike Pence“ ring a bell?
And the “s” left off “insurrectionists”  was obviously a typo. Smart people could see that.  members of the capitol police died as a result of the riot.

1) Did anyone take rope in to hang Mike Pence? Or were they simply yelling silly things? It was wrong either way, but I don't think for a moment they were at all serious.

2) Are you sure that your dropping of the "s" was a typo? And how should I know that? I assume you write exactly what you mean to say and that you take the time to properly edit your statement. Would you rather I assume you dash off your words without any thought?

3) Please list the names of the "capitol police died as a result of the riot." Please make sure there is more than one name listed since you used the plural. (Or are you going to cry "typo" again? You seem to have a lot of those.) Or is this more "blue sky speculation"? While your at it, can you also give us a list of the names of parents who are protesting the teaching of slavery in schools as you stated a couple of weeks back? I've requested this several times. I'm beginning to think you have no evidence to back up your assertion.
Very often the fans of some team will riot after the game. (For some reason, it happens more often when their team wins, which seems really stupid, but sometimes it happens when their team loses on a bad call or bad break.) Sometimes those fans will have chanted, "A rope! A tree! Hang the referee!" during the game. That doesn't mean they overturned somebody's old car with murderous intent, even if someone watching from their window dies of a heart attack during the riot. Mike Pence was, in the view of the crowd, the referee that cost them the game. Nobody there was going to hang him. You might as well say that somebody with an F*** Trump bumper sticker was expressing the intent to engage in sexual intercourse with Donald Trump. 

For heaven's sake, the entire plot of Twelve Angry Men hinges on the idea that expressing a desire or intent to kill someone is often a mere hyperbolic expression of anger and frustration. Everyone knows that. Very often commentators after an election will talk about it being a bloodbath for one party.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 03:49:53 PM by peter_speckhard »

Dave Likeness

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2021, 03:45:40 PM »
@jebutler......In your signoff sentence you use the name of H. Grady Davis.

In my homiletics class at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis our professor George
Hoyer used his textbook.  The popular Goal, Malady, Means of Richard Caemmerer
was substituted with H. Grady Davis and his Point, Problem, Power.   It still comes
out the same Law/Gospel template.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2021, 04:45:10 PM »
An interesting trial to follow, from the colorful behavior of the judge, to the gun-wielding prosecutor who obviously never took a gun safety course, to the defendant picking numbers of his prospective jurors in raffle-style.  But the self-defense issue at the heart of it, as with anything else, is complicated.  I am of the opinion that it would have been better all around if Rittenhouse had never gone to that protest. And certainly not with a loaded weapon.  You could predict that something tragic might happen.  Grabbing the barrel of a gun as it is pointed in your direction was neither wise nor safe. Not sure what that guy was thinking.  Pointing a pistol at the defendant certainly didn't do anything to de-escalate what was about to occur.  Not sure what that guy was thinking either.  And hitting him with a skateboard and kicking him while down on the ground didn't help calm the waters either.  The whole night was explosive with violent with deadly potential.  It is tragic that any of it had to occur.  It seems to me that in 2020 the idea that protests can be violent and destructive became excusable in a somewhat new way.  We explain it away based on pent up frustration and anger.  It is a way to get attention that might otherwise not be possible.  But going down this road only ends with more violence and destruction....and death.  Then the idea of defunding the very agencies that are there to prevent this.  It's a mess.  I pray that we find a way to control this.  I pray we find sanity in the midst of this chaos.

This is roughly where I am as well.  I am happy to point out the double standard between "Rittenhouse shouldn't have been there" and "the criminals who were rioting and looting and destroying were just expressing their disappointment at oppression (which in this case really wasn't, but whatever)."  I am happy to point out that if we're in the wild, wild west, then sometimes bad stuff happens and in the vernacular, the three men who got shot blanked around and found out.  But I'm also quite uncomfortable with the notion that someone who decides to enter into the fray of political violence has made a good decision by doing so.  We can denounce violence, even over and against the self-interested liars and gaslighters who pretend it's no big deal, without actually entering into it.

If they attack my business or my family, that's a different matter.  But there's no need to go buying trouble, and Christians I think have a moral obligation to avoid it where it is at all possible to do so.

My understanding was that Mr. Rittenhouse went to Kenosha to help with clean-up after the rioting/looting.  Although it is across state lines, it is only a short drive and is the city in which Mr. Rittenhouse worked and in which his father lives.  There are photos of Mr. Rittenhouse cleaning graffiti off of buildings.  And that, later that day, a family friend asked the young man to help him guard his business that evening, as the previous night it had been attacked in the rioting.  If one is guarding a business from violent criminals, it makes sense to be prepared.  Even armed.  And agreeing to help another protect his business from destruction certainly seems like the Christian thing to do (isn't that what the meaning of the Seventh Commandment enjoins us to do?).  The fracas which ended in the shooting resulted from rioters trying to burn the business down using a dumpster they had set afire and pushed to the building; Mr. Rittenhouse extinguished the fire, resulting in the wrath of rioters such as Mr. Rosenbaum (who threatened to kill Mr. Rittenhouse and tried to take his weapon).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 04:57:30 PM by Steven W Bohler »

Mark Brown

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2021, 04:47:36 PM »
The whole thing just sickens me.  A 17 year old boy knew something was wrong and tried to step into the breach because nobody else was doing anything.  He had no business being there, and a wiser person wouldn't have been. That is the failure of his parents.  But everybody else, many who are still in their jobs, from the governor who didn't call out the guard and then didn't do it in numbers high enough, to the state and county police, to the national dem lawmakers who encouraged this stuff - they all had vested authority to keep the peace.  And they all did nothing. They let this happen abandoning their proper vocations.  If the only thing that happens is all of that completely failed leadership is still around and a 17 year old boy is in jail, this country deserves divine rebuke.

David Garner

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2021, 05:02:39 PM »
The whole thing just sickens me.  A 17 year old boy knew something was wrong and tried to step into the breach because nobody else was doing anything.  He had no business being there, and a wiser person wouldn't have been. That is the failure of his parents.  But everybody else, many who are still in their jobs, from the governor who didn't call out the guard and then didn't do it in numbers high enough, to the state and county police, to the national dem lawmakers who encouraged this stuff - they all had vested authority to keep the peace.  And they all did nothing. They let this happen abandoning their proper vocations.  If the only thing that happens is all of that completely failed leadership is still around and a 17 year old boy is in jail, this country deserves divine rebuke.

Agree with this also.  The failure of the adults led in a straight line to this incident happening.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2021, 10:37:31 AM »
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-medias-verdict-on-kyle-rittenhouse

Last August, a Congresswoman posted this about the Rittenhouse saga

A 17 year old white supremacist domestic terrorist drove across state lines, armed with an AR 15.

He shot and killed 2 people who had assembled to affirm the value, dignity, and worth of Black lives.

Fix your damn headlines.


This Congresswoman is utterly unfit to serve.

David Garner

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2021, 10:45:24 AM »
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-medias-verdict-on-kyle-rittenhouse

Last August, a Congresswoman posted this about the Rittenhouse saga

A 17 year old white supremacist domestic terrorist drove across state lines, armed with an AR 15.

He shot and killed 2 people who had assembled to affirm the value, dignity, and worth of Black lives.

Fix your damn headlines.


This Congresswoman is utterly unfit to serve.

The media's response to this is utter propaganda, and is appalling.  No matter how you slice it, a conviction here will be largely based on 11th hour drone footage that may (or may not) show that Rittenhouse pointed his gun in the general direction of some of these folks, IF the jury also believes 1) that this is what the video shows beyond a reasonable doubt; AND 2) that this act is sufficient provocation to deprive him of the self-defense privilege.

There is no evidence he is an actual white supremacist (as opposed to someone who merely disagrees with the left).

There is no evidence he crossed state lines "armed with an AR15," and in fact the evidence shows that he did not in fact have the AR-15 when he crossed state lines.

The people he killed may or may not have assembled "to affirm the value, dignity and worth of black lives," but they also assembled to destroy, riot, burn and attack people like Kyle Rittenhouse.

But the media will repeat stuff like this loopy congresswoman because they want people to believe it.  Convicting Kyle Rittenhouse is not a moral imperative because he is clearly guilty.  Convicting Kyle Rittenhouse is not even necessary to their purpose.  Because their purpose is not to punish guilt or affirm the lack of guilt, but rather to stir up emotions among ill-informed people to drive a political result.  Truth is not needed.  In fact, truth is inconvenient to the real aim that people believe the false narrative.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dave Benke

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2021, 11:00:19 AM »
There is no evidence he crossed state lines "armed with an AR15," and in fact the evidence shows that he did not in fact have the AR-15 when he crossed state lines.


Where did he get the weapon and from whom?  I didn't know this was an unknown. 

Dave Benke

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Re: Christian response to Rittenhouse trial
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2021, 11:14:30 AM »
There is no evidence he crossed state lines "armed with an AR15," and in fact the evidence shows that he did not in fact have the AR-15 when he crossed state lines.


Where did he get the weapon and from whom?  I didn't know this was an unknown. 

Dave Benke

It is not an unknown. It's a known.
Don Kirchner

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