2007 CWA & Sexuality - What do you tell your congregation?

[scott3]

Headline: "Lutherans to allow pastors in gay relationships"

Charles, I do hope that you now agree that other Lutherans other than those in the ELCA have standing to contest this type of claim that in our "sound-byte" culture translates into an undifferentiated statement of what is true.

[Gladfelteri]

Here is a link to the NPR story about this:  "Evangelical Lutherans Urged Not to Discipline Gay Clergy"   http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12716157

[Gladfelteri]

To what extent do you address the '07 CWA in your congregation tomorrow morning?  Or your next newsletter... or next week... or whatever else.  With the potential of folks waking up to headlines of "Lutherans OK pastors in gay couples"... what, exactly, do you say?  Thanks in advance for your help... I'm 13 months into my first call, so any advice on points like this is appreciated!

Since I am not ELCA. I don't have to address this except to remind any in my community who ask, that this was a decision of the ELCA, not of the Lutheran Church to which I belong; and to ask them to pray for the ELCA; and for those in the ELCA who will now have to struggle with the consequences of what has happened.

[Gladfelteri]

Yes, I think the way to approach it is to say that policy has not changed. Bishops have always had discretion; they've been urged by the CWA to exercise it more gently. The motion, technically, was little more than a "sense of the house" motion.

That point should be made as strongly as possible; especially since GoodSoil and other gay advocacy groups may be presenting this otherwise.   

[Gladfelteri]

Respectfully, the ELCA has done great harm to Lutherans throughout the United States by its convoluted aqctions at this Assembley.

As for David Baer's insert sheet "Explanation..." I would think that the average, common-sense, layperson would simply say, "This is pure double-talk."

Maybe.  It also may come across as something like:  the bishops are being urged not to enforce present regulations in anticipation that they will be changed at the next CWA.  (That does make some administrative sense, actually, if they are likley to change.) 

[scott3]

Irl,

I respect your desire to not be associated with these types of decisions.  Neither do I.

[Gladfelteri]

A reasonable fearless forecast would be that within a short generation gay marriage and full legal rights is going to be the law of the land.  The questions to be asked are how we are going to live in as well as  minister to and in that reality.  I haven't heard the questions anywhere, and without them, the answers will not be forthdoming.  

You are probably right about the future legal climate.  As far as how to operate in that climate?  As a practical matter, in that climate - if and when it arrives, my Church - the ECCL will do whatever Rome does, following their Canon Law Code.  

The best guess from some R.C. Canon Lawyers I know is that gays (and "those advocating the so-called gay lifestyle - as B16 wrote) will not be knowingly ordained; and the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will only be administered to heterosexual couples who have already been married by a J. P or magistrate.  That way, in this country, anyway, civil law won't be able to touch us.  Their (and our) practice will be a 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion matter.

[Charles_Austin]

Scott writes:
I respect your desire to not be associated with these types of decisions.  Neither do I.

I comment:
Yep. The way some of us desire not to be associated with decisions that bar women from ministry, keep Christians from praying together, or placing the Bible above the Word.

[scott3]

Scott writes:
I respect your desire to not be associated with these types of decisions.  Neither do I.

I comment:
Yep. The way some of us desire not to be associated with decisions that bar women from ministry, keep Christians from praying together, or placing the Bible above the Word.

Cool. 

Would you care to make a biblical argument in favor of ...?

I'm game for anything re: women's ordination.  Are you?

And as to praying together, you are arguing against someone that's not me or the LCMS, but likely WELS.

As to placing the Bible above the Word, what distinction do you have in mind.  Please spell it out.

I would love to engage you on any of the aforementioned issues, as long as you really want to exegete Christian Scripture.

[Charles_Austin]

Scott writes:
I would love to engage you on any of the aforementioned issues, as long as you really want to exegete Christian Scripture.

I comment:
No, thanks. I don't see that it's necessary that we agree on ordination for women, whether the Word is Christ or the letters on the page of the Bible, or whether Lutherans can commune with Episcopalians.

[scott3]

Scott writes:
I would love to engage you on any of the aforementioned issues, as long as you really want to exegete Christian Scripture.

I comment:
No, thanks. I don't see that it's necessary that we agree on ordination for women, whether the Word is Christ or the letters on the page of the Bible, or whether Lutherans can commune with Episcopalians.

Ahhh.  So you want to assert what you would like to assert without the inconvenience of to debate Scripture with those who may disagree with you because perhaps we might not "agree", and the lack of such ageement prima facie indicates falsity (very strange).  You would further like to assert anything having to do with Episocaplians w/o me having (or anyone else, to my knowledge) having mentioned such; but if they do, I see that you would like the interpretations to be conducted along lines conducive to you.  If you would please indicate those lines, I for one would appreciate it.

So as you deem fit, please by all means show how what you are saying coincides with the deep "grammar" or "logic" of Scripture.  I would love to talk Bible with you, but now'a'days I find very few comers who are willing to discuss what Scripture actually says among those who would like to change the way the Church has read Scripture...

I'm still waiting for you or Brian or Steve or Charles or _____ to show how Scripture teaches that certain people should engage in homosexual behavior.  Anyone who would like to prove me wrong is more than welcome to do so (I say "more than welcome" because I have repeatedly challenged folks to do so but have not seen anyone engaging my repeated challenge).

[John Martin]

"Resolved, that in an effort to continue as a church in moral deliberation without further strife and pain to its members the Churchwide Assembly prays, urges, and encourages synods, synodical bishops, and the presiding bishop to refrain from or demonstrate restraint in disciplining those congregations and persons who call into the rostered ministry otherwise-qualified candidates who are in a mutual, chaste, and faithful committed same-gender relationship, and be it further

"Resolved, that the Churchwide Assembly prays, urges, and encourages synods, synodical bishops, and the presiding bishop to refrain from or demonstrate restraint in disciplining those rostered leaders in a mutual, chaste, and faithful committed same-gender relationship who have been called and rostered in this church."

A common dictionary defintion (Webster) gives for the meaning of "chaste" is "innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse." Of course, that begs the question for Christians of just what is God's revealed understanding concerning sexual morality? As an Lutheran, I wonder what the implications are for this in respect to opening the door to called church workers to engage in the widest possible view of sexual freedom? See: http://www.libchrist.com/bible/contents.html

[Dan Fienen]

Scott writes:
I would love to engage you on any of the aforementioned issues, as long as you really want to exegete Christian Scripture.

I comment:
No, thanks. I don't see that it's necessary that we agree on ordination for women, whether the Word is Christ or the letters on the page of the Bible, or whether Lutherans can commune with Episcopalians.

Charles,

Where do you encounter the Word of God that is Christ?  I learn most about Him, hear Him speak, encounter Him primarily in the written word of God usually manifest as letters on the page of the Bible though occasionally as images projected electronically on a display screen.  I do not worship the Bible nor expect it to save me.  I do, however look to it as a primary way God reveals Himself and His will to me and so it is useful and authoritative for me.

Dan

[Brian Stoffregen]

Here is a link to the NPR story about this:  "Evangelical Lutherans Urged Not to Discipline Gay

They, at least, are more accurate in their headlines than others.

[bmj]

Yes, I think the way to approach it is to say that policy has not changed. Bishops have always had discretion; they've been urged by the CWA to exercise it more gently. The motion, technically, was little more than a "sense of the house" motion.

That point should be made as strongly as possible; especially since GoodSoil and other gay advocacy groups may be presenting this otherwise.   

Here is a link to the lnca news release.

http://www.lcna.org/lcna_news/2007-08-11.shtm