Author Topic: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans  (Read 4183 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2021, 04:10:27 PM »
A group I know less about is LCMC. How are the different from the other Lutheran denominations?


You can check them out at their website: https://www.lcmc.net/


They don't consider themselves a denomination. They began as a network of congregations connected over shared interests. A key one at the beginning was their opposition to Called to Common Mission. The ELCA's full communion agreement with The Episcopal Church. They believe that the requirement of bishops officiating at ordinations was contrary to our confessions. Their opposition to that agreement was their rallying point.

In that sense, they were a bit like Lutherans Concerned/North America or Reconciled in Christ congregations. Congregations that were bound together by a common interest.


As I saw their development, they "morphed" (my term) into a more denominational-like structure as more congregations in the network became more dissatisfied with the ELCA. Congregations are pretty much autonomous. There is no hierarchy - no bishops/presidents. Congregations are accountable to one another.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 04:12:26 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2021, 06:27:03 PM »
Differences Between ELCA, NALC, LCMC, etc... and LCMS in 2021:

ELCA
- considers "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to be an optional metaphor
- considers the Gospel to be synonymous with Social Justice
- considers sex outside of marriage to be acceptable for ordained ministers
- believes that Christ is one among many saviors

LCMS, NALC, LCMC, etc...
- consider "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to be the revealed name of God
- distinguish between the Gospel and the good works that follow faith in the Gospel
- consider marriage to be the only appropriate place for sex
- believe that Christ is the only savior
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 06:28:42 PM by DCharlton »
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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2021, 06:44:35 PM »
Differences Between ELCA, NALC, LCMC, etc... and LCMS in 2021:

ELCA
- considers "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to be an optional metaphor
- considers the Gospel to be synonymous with Social Justice
- considers sex outside of marriage to be acceptable for ordained ministers
- believes that Christ is one among many saviors

LCMS, NALC, LCMC, etc...
- consider "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to be the revealed name of God
- distinguish between the Gospel and the good works that follow faith in the Gospel
- consider marriage to be the only appropriate place for sex
- believe that Christ is the only savior
Forget ordained ministers— sex outside of marriage is not acceptable for Christians just because they’re not ordained.

DCharlton

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2021, 07:12:53 PM »
Differences Between ELCA, NALC, LCMC, etc... and LCMS in 2021:

ELCA
- considers "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to be an optional metaphor
- considers the Gospel to be synonymous with Social Justice
- considers sex outside of marriage to be acceptable for ordained ministers
- believes that Christ is one among many saviors

LCMS, NALC, LCMC, etc...
- consider "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to be the revealed name of God
- distinguish between the Gospel and the good works that follow faith in the Gospel
- consider marriage to be the only appropriate place for sex
- believe that Christ is the only savior
Forget ordained ministers— sex outside of marriage is not acceptable for Christians just because they’re not ordained.

Right.  In my characterization of the LCMS, NALC, LCMC and others, I did not qualify it by including the term "ordained minister". 
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2021, 07:21:42 PM »
Differences Between ELCA, NALC, LCMC, etc... and LCMS in 2021:

ELCA
- considers "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to be an optional metaphor
- considers the Gospel to be synonymous with Social Justice
- considers sex outside of marriage to be acceptable for ordained ministers
- believes that Christ is one among many saviors


Please show us where the ELCA has stated any of these things.


We have not changed our Confession of Faith, which I quote from below:


2.01. This church confesses the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
2.02. This church confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Gospel as the power of God for the salvation of all who believe.
      a. Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnate, through whom everything was made and through whose life, death, and resurrection God fashions a new creation.
      b. The proclamation of God’s message to us as both Law and Gospel is the Word of God, revealing judgment and mercy through word and deed, beginning with the Word in crea­tion, continuing in the history of Israel, and centering in all its fullness in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
      c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. In­spired by God’s Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God’s revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God’s Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

I also quote from Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust:


Because this church urges couples to seek the highest social and legal support for their relationships, it does not favor cohabitation arrangements outside of marriage. It has a special concern when such arrangements are entered into as an end in themselves. It does, however, acknowledge the social forces at work that encourage such practices. This church also recognizes the pastoral and familial issues that accompany these contemporary social patterns.

Officially, we encourage marriage as the best relationship for sexual relationships.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Granted, there are clergy within the ELCA who may hold positions that match your statements; but they are not the teachings nor confession of the ELCA.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 07:28:38 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2021, 08:49:54 PM »
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Granted, there are clergy within the ELCA who may hold positions that match your statements; but they are not the teachings nor confession of the ELCA.

Oh, I base what I write on plenty of facts.  I base it on what the ELCA's leaders do and say, on the ELCA's most recent hymnal and worship materials, on Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline 2021, and on the actions of the Churchwide Assembly.  In fact, you regularly espouse and defend the very things that you are currently denying.   
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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2021, 09:38:28 PM »
And yet you lead an ELCA congregation.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2021, 10:02:21 PM »
And yet you lead an ELCA congregation.

If so, thank  God!
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DCharlton

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2021, 10:38:09 PM »
And yet you lead an ELCA congregation.

Well, of course.  Just as there are people in the LCMS who favor women's ordination, open-communion, or believe in theistic evolution, there are people in the ELCA who hold old fashioned notions about God's name, the distinction between Law and Gospel, marriage, or salvation. 
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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2021, 11:48:48 PM »
This summary of the difference between the two major Lutheran church bodies in America is from Jaroslav Pelikan: "the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod became Baptist, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America became Methodist".

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2021, 02:58:40 AM »
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Granted, there are clergy within the ELCA who may hold positions that match your statements; but they are not the teachings nor confession of the ELCA.

Oh, I base what I write on plenty of facts.  I base it on what the ELCA's leaders do and say, on the ELCA's most recent hymnal and worship materials, on Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline 2021, and on the actions of the Churchwide Assembly.  In fact, you regularly espouse and defend the very things that you are currently denying.


Please reference what you object to in those documents. Also, are there sufficient options in the worship materials so that you can use what the ELCA has prepared? That is, do they use language that you find acceptable? Do they create space for you to worship in the way you prefer?


While some liturgical options don't begin with "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," but rather use different images, usually directly from scriptures, to talk about the Triune God; the traditional language is not abandoned. It always remains an option. (It is also the only approved option for baptisms, where scriptures says we need to use "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." There is nothing that says we have to use it as an invocation.


Yes, I defend the ELCA. I do not find that they have officially adopted any of the positions that you say that they have adopted. The clergy who may have such beliefs are like the LCMS clergy who favor women's ordination, open communion, etc., that are at odds with the official teachings of their church body.


I defend the ELCA because we are a church body that has created room for you and me and Charles and Dick, and many other Lutherans who have different opinions about many different things; but we are united in the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 03:01:34 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2021, 05:20:31 AM »
Pastor Charlton says  his ELCA:
- considers "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to be an optional metaphor
- considers the Gospel to be synonymous with Social Justice
- considers sex outside of marriage to be acceptable for ordained ministers
- believes that Christ is one among many saviors

I comment:
-No. Our ELCA says God is “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. And however we refer to God, that Holy Trinity is the God to whom we refer, no one else.
-Care for our neighbor, individually and collectively, and for justice for our neighbors  is a clear, un-disputed biblical mandate. It must exist with the proclamation of the Gospel. Only the weirdest “faith-is-me-and-my-God” heretic would argue with that.
-No. Full sexual intimacy belongs within a committed, public, life-long relationship.
-Show us where, in our statements of faith, our liturgical publications, our hymnals, the words of our key leaders, we say Christ is “one among many saviors”. If I thought the ELCA taught that, I would resign from it immediately. (There may be other saviors out there, but Jesus is the only one revealed to us as Christians and the only one we follow. We call everyone to Jesus, not to anyone else.)
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2021, 07:13:55 AM »
This summary of the difference between the two major Lutheran church bodies in America is from Jaroslav Pelikan: "the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod became Baptist, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America became Methodist".

A lot of truth in that.

And Pelikan became Orthodox.
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2021, 07:58:49 AM »
This summary of the difference between the two major Lutheran church bodies in America is from Jaroslav Pelikan: "the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod became Baptist, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America became Methodist".

A lot of truth in that.

And Pelikan became Orthodox.

I don't think his statement about the LCMS makes sense at all. I'm familiar with the Baptist tradition and the points of departure are many more than the points of full agreement. More than likely Pelikan intended to imply that the LCMS was becoming fundamentalist. But that also doesn't work since sociologists use fundamentalist to describe conservatism in a wide variety of religions and not just Christianity. Pelikan was uncomfortable with the conservative trend in the LCMS. With greater candor, he might have said the latter.
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Re: Listing Concerns about Those Other Lutherans
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2021, 08:58:06 AM »
This summary of the difference between the two major Lutheran church bodies in America is from Jaroslav Pelikan: "the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod became Baptist, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America became Methodist".

A lot of truth in that.

And Pelikan became Orthodox.

I don't think his statement about the LCMS makes sense at all. I'm familiar with the Baptist tradition and the points of departure are many more than the points of full agreement. More than likely Pelikan intended to imply that the LCMS was becoming fundamentalist. But that also doesn't work since sociologists use fundamentalist to describe conservatism in a wide variety of religions and not just Christianity. Pelikan was uncomfortable with the conservative trend in the LCMS. With greater candor, he might have said the latter.

That statement was written back a pretty long while, Ed.  I think it may have to do somewhat with worship style issues, as the larger congregations became more Word and song oriented, and the proclamation more "how-to" with moralizing and basis in law. 

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