Author Topic: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?  (Read 3448 times)

John_Hannah

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2021, 03:21:12 PM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

Amen. Thanks, Edward.   ;D
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

peterm

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2021, 03:24:19 PM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

I resonate with this from the other side of the fence.  I have been posting here for a long time, and found much that is insightful and engaging.  That said, I have also pointed out to the moderators a time or two that there is a definite tone here when it comes to discussing the church body of which I am a part.  I try to be respectful of other church bodies represented here, and would hope others do the same.  If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Charles Austin

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2021, 03:32:42 PM »
And whimsy fails again! My casual comment about being amused at how some people are annoyed and that maybe I throw  in a sentence or two to annoy them is being taken much too seriously.much too seriously.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

John_Hannah

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2021, 03:42:43 PM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

I resonate with this from the other side of the fence.  I have been posting here for a long time, and found much that is insightful and engaging.  That said, I have also pointed out to the moderators a time or two that there is a definite tone here when it comes to discussing the church body of which I am a part.  I try to be respectful of other church bodies represented here, and would hope others do the same.  If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off.

Thank you, Peter.

This is especially relevant:

" If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off."

Peace, JOHN   ;D
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2021, 04:07:55 PM »
And whimsy fails again! My casual comment about being amused at how some people are annoyed and that maybe I throw  in a sentence or two to annoy them is being taken much too seriously.much too seriously.

Speaking of taking things much too seriously...

These are the words of Satan...

In response to  the recent words of Satan in this Forum...

Really? I rightly call Charles an arrogant bully. One time, I sent Charles a private message, truthfully telling him he was being an a-----e. The long-time New Jerseyite was so offended that he went whining to Dick over the private message, and I was suspended for 30 days. You might prefer the term tattletale or snitch baby. In legal slang, it's rat.

A while ago I called our governor Comrade Walz for some of his socialist-like decisions. You told me I was damned and, of course, Dick deleted my whole chain because "you called your governor a rude name." I smelled a rat.

Get a grip, Mr. Teigen.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 04:26:03 PM by Donald_Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2021, 04:11:27 PM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

I resonate with this from the other side of the fence.  I have been posting here for a long time, and found much that is insightful and engaging.  That said, I have also pointed out to the moderators a time or two that there is a definite tone here when it comes to discussing the church body of which I am a part.  I try to be respectful of other church bodies represented here, and would hope others do the same.  If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off.

Thank you, Peter.

This is especially relevant:

" If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off."

Peace, JOHN   ;D
The issue, though, is that our "fringe" is not so fring-y anymore, by a long shot. Unfair characterizations should be called out and argued, sure. Hence the "forum." But at the same time, we ought not be too quick to cry foul or claim mistreatment when someone calls a thing what it is (NB: I'm certainly not saying that this is what you're doing at all, Pr. Morlock, but it happens pretty regularly around here). The truth hurts.

My thoughts:

It's a forum. When it's good, it's very good. Those who have been here a while (pretty much all of us) know what the issue is, and that it won't go away, team loyalty being what it is. Makes me sad, for I miss the old days; but what can you do?

So argue your point. Don't make it personal. Take the "L" when you've earned it. Don't be a troll. And don't feed trolls. It's hard, but ignore. Don't fuel the pathology--and it is a pathology.

RPG+
The Rev. Ryan P. Gage
Eureka, SD

Dave Benke

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2021, 04:16:05 PM »
I often wonder if and how this forum online is a safe place for Brian.  He is a prodigious poster, and responses and reactions are many as well.  So I rise with a toast to Brian.

I knew Brian before his 43000 posts on the alpb forum online.  Yes, he existed before his existence here.  I knew him having never met him because of his weekly Gospel Notes, sent upon request to assist with the lessons for the day (RCL) for each Sunday and some holidays.  And pretty much invariably those Gospel notes bring insights that have been useful in preparing for proclamation.  I don't know how many people receive his Gospel Notes in our group or on his overall list; I recommend them highly.  Here's the latest one (without his permission) on All Saints -https://mailchi.mp/9d90fc6e3e2b/gospel-notes-john-1132-44?e=b18fae7cb7.   Check out the story of the rabbi, which can be made to preach without much trouble. 

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2021, 04:59:42 PM »
I have heard from lesbian clergy in our church who have peeked into this forum and stated: "I would never post anything there." Their reluctance doesn't come from anything Charles has posted.
What do they fear would happen if they did post something here? Where do they find a forum with more diversity of participation? Or do they just not bother with online forums at all? If we set out to attract them into participating here, what would we have to do? And if we did that, who would either leave or not come here because we did that?


 Their comment: They've seen the kind of personal abuse that has come my way (and towards Charles) and they don't want to subject themselves to that verbal abuse.


The ELCA groups on Facebook are much more liberal in their outlook.

Quote
I don't have a problem with people who don't want to participate here. No forum is for everybody. I don't blame someone for saying they think posting here would not be a good thing to do. So be it. I do have a problem with people who blame the nature of the forum for those people's decisions.


I suspect that you have only heard from people leaving because of Charles because they share many of your beliefs. Similarly, I've heard from people leaving or refusing to post because they share many of my beliefs. Neither is an accurate representation of the non-posters or leavers.

Quote
The fact is, all this complaining about the diversity of the forum is like complaining that Aaron Rodgers isn't a good enough quarterback. He isn't perfect, but unless you have a better quarterback in mind to replace him with, maybe change your complaints about his interceptions to something more resembling appropriate gratitude for how good he is. This is without question the best forum for Lutheran-related discussion among the full spectrum of Lutherans in the country. It is not an echo-chamber. It features genuine disagreement and conflict. It covers any and every topic Lutherans might care about. It features the most diversity of opinion and Lutheran church body affiliation bar none. If your lesbian clergy friends don't like it, well, a lot of people don't like it. That can be said about any forum. They're welcome to join and participate.


Ah, but there can be civil disagreements and disagreements that view the opponents as enemies or unChristian. I've had numerous discussions and personal chats about our differences with the conservative, Republican, ELCA female clergy - and they do not turn into attacks on each other, like happens here.


An observation I shared with another poster (an active LCMS member) who agreed with me: during the time that Charles was banned, it seemed as if the LCMS folks were less kind to each other. It seems that they need to argue with someone - and since Charles wasn't here as their target, they turned on each other.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 05:26:12 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2021, 05:21:34 PM »
I often ask myself why I bother to keep participating here... I stay in to keep annoying them...

Because you're an arrogant bully? And, like most bullies, you're a wuss when you perceive someone is being mean to you, then becoming a rat.


I remember Russ Saltzman, a former editor for ALPB, saying that he was the conservative conscience in the ALC/ELCA. He's a friend. His parents were members of a congregation I served. I joined ALPB to be a liberal conscience for this group. Without the differing viewpoint, a group can become a mutual admiration society. They support each other's prejudices and biases without anyone to challenge them.


I enjoy the challenges. Many times I've gone to Scriptures (in the original languages and my Lexicons) in response to posts made here.

Another comment from Type Theory: based on five different MBTI studies of clergy, 70% of clergy (in those studies) have a Feeling preference. I've attached a chart of the typical behaviors of Feelers and Thinkers. In terms of a safe space. Feelers tend to become personally involved in making decisions. Critiques of the decision become personal. In contrast, Thinkers tend to be detached from their decision-making. Critiques of the decision do not become personal. (Sometimes even when a critique is meant to be personal, Thinkers can shrug it off because they are detached - often seeing to be cold towards others.)

« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 05:27:51 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2021, 05:30:32 PM »
I often wonder if and how this forum online is a safe place for Brian.  He is a prodigious poster, and responses and reactions are many as well.  So I rise with a toast to Brian.

I knew Brian before his 43000 posts on the alpb forum online.  Yes, he existed before his existence here.  I knew him having never met him because of his weekly Gospel Notes, sent upon request to assist with the lessons for the day (RCL) for each Sunday and some holidays.  And pretty much invariably those Gospel notes bring insights that have been useful in preparing for proclamation.  I don't know how many people receive his Gospel Notes in our group or on his overall list; I recommend them highly.  Here's the latest one (without his permission) on All Saints -https://mailchi.mp/9d90fc6e3e2b/gospel-notes-john-1132-44?e=b18fae7cb7.   Check out the story of the rabbi, which can be made to preach without much trouble. 

Dave Benke


Thank you, Dave. (You have my permission to post my notes.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2021, 09:23:41 PM »
I often wonder if and how this forum online is a safe place for Brian.  He is a prodigious poster, and responses and reactions are many as well.  So I rise with a toast to Brian.

I knew Brian before his 43000 posts on the alpb forum online.  Yes, he existed before his existence here.  I knew him having never met him because of his weekly Gospel Notes, sent upon request to assist with the lessons for the day (RCL) for each Sunday and some holidays.  And pretty much invariably those Gospel notes bring insights that have been useful in preparing for proclamation.  I don't know how many people receive his Gospel Notes in our group or on his overall list; I recommend them highly.  Here's the latest one (without his permission) on All Saints -https://mailchi.mp/9d90fc6e3e2b/gospel-notes-john-1132-44?e=b18fae7cb7.   Check out the story of the rabbi, which can be made to preach without much trouble. 

Dave Benke


Thank you, Dave. (You have my permission to post my notes.)

You're welcome. 

Dave Benke

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2021, 09:56:45 AM »
I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness.

This is an acquired skill that many on social media in general have failed to master.  Imagine how much we could learn from each other if egos were put in check.

peterm

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2021, 10:41:50 AM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

I resonate with this from the other side of the fence.  I have been posting here for a long time, and found much that is insightful and engaging.  That said, I have also pointed out to the moderators a time or two that there is a definite tone here when it comes to discussing the church body of which I am a part.  I try to be respectful of other church bodies represented here, and would hope others do the same.  If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off.

Thank you, Peter.

This is especially relevant:

" If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off."

Peace, JOHN   ;D
The issue, though, is that our "fringe" is not so fring-y anymore, by a long shot. Unfair characterizations should be called out and argued, sure. Hence the "forum." But at the same time, we ought not be too quick to cry foul or claim mistreatment when someone calls a thing what it is (NB: I'm certainly not saying that this is what you're doing at all, Pr. Morlock, but it happens pretty regularly around here). The truth hurts.

My thoughts:

It's a forum. When it's good, it's very good. Those who have been here a while (pretty much all of us) know what the issue is, and that it won't go away, team loyalty being what it is. Makes me sad, for I miss the old days; but what can you do?

So argue your point. Don't make it personal. Take the "L" when you've earned it. Don't be a troll. And don't feed trolls. It's hard, but ignore. Don't fuel the pathology--and it is a pathology.

RPG+

Fair, except that my larger point was that all too often when my church body is discussed broad labels like Heterodox etc. are tossed around.  When discussing things like those LCMS churches that have difficulty with women lectors, those of us not of your group are repeatedly cautioned not to judge the whole of the LCMS by those, nor do I judge the whole LCMS by the actions of the young local LCMS pastor who regularly sends letters to my members telling them they are bound for hell,, but every time NBW opens her mouth there is gleeful pouncing and rehashing again of all  the many ways that the ELCA has fallen into its own ditch and we are all tarred with that same brush.  I'm all for vigorous theological debate and discussion.  I would prefer that we leave condemnations and broad generalities out of the discussion.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Dave Benke

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2021, 11:06:42 AM »
I'm all for vigorous theological debate and discussion.  I would prefer that we leave condemnations and broad generalities out of the discussion.

Second the emotion with an emoticon 8)

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Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2021, 11:14:11 AM »
I participate on ALPB because it allows me to hear from others with different, sometimes very different, points of view. I learn from the dialogue.

At times it seems like members of the forum see themselves competing to rule the forum. There's a difference between makes one's point well and attempting to shout others down or get them so angry that they turn to the worst rhetoric or vocabulary and get thrown out.

I try not to participate in the tit-for-tat exchanges that make the forum sometimes painful and offensive to read. Secular political discussion seems especially prone to bringing out the talons and teeth, so I generally stay away from those topics.

I am a firm LCMS conservative but with politeness I find that I can communicate positively with the more liberal participants. I would encourage all members of the forum to practice simple politeness. It will make a better forum, which may grow more interesting to those currently not participating.

I resonate with this from the other side of the fence.  I have been posting here for a long time, and found much that is insightful and engaging.  That said, I have also pointed out to the moderators a time or two that there is a definite tone here when it comes to discussing the church body of which I am a part.  I try to be respectful of other church bodies represented here, and would hope others do the same.  If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off.

Thank you, Peter.

This is especially relevant:

" If you expect me not to paint the LCMS with the broad brush of your fringes, I would like to be able to expect the same in regards to the ELCA.  All too often this does not happen, and when Charles or Brian or others point it out we are brushed off."

Peace, JOHN   ;D
The issue, though, is that our "fringe" is not so fring-y anymore, by a long shot. Unfair characterizations should be called out and argued, sure. Hence the "forum." But at the same time, we ought not be too quick to cry foul or claim mistreatment when someone calls a thing what it is (NB: I'm certainly not saying that this is what you're doing at all, Pr. Morlock, but it happens pretty regularly around here). The truth hurts.

My thoughts:

It's a forum. When it's good, it's very good. Those who have been here a while (pretty much all of us) know what the issue is, and that it won't go away, team loyalty being what it is. Makes me sad, for I miss the old days; but what can you do?

So argue your point. Don't make it personal. Take the "L" when you've earned it. Don't be a troll. And don't feed trolls. It's hard, but ignore. Don't fuel the pathology--and it is a pathology.

RPG+

Fair, except that my larger point was that all too often when my church body is discussed broad labels like Heterodox etc. are tossed around.  When discussing things like those LCMS churches that have difficulty with women lectors, those of us not of your group are repeatedly cautioned not to judge the whole of the LCMS by those, nor do I judge the whole LCMS by the actions of the young local LCMS pastor who regularly sends letters to my members telling them they are bound for hell,, but every time NBW opens her mouth there is gleeful pouncing and rehashing again of all  the many ways that the ELCA has fallen into its own ditch and we are all tarred with that same brush.  I'm all for vigorous theological debate and discussion.  I would prefer that we leave condemnations and broad generalities out of the discussion.

Do you think it is fair to compare us who oppose women lectors on biblical grounds to those who send letters to your parishioners telling them they are bound for hell?