Author Topic: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?  (Read 6756 times)

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19191
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #195 on: December 03, 2021, 11:34:34 AM »
If we were able to follow Godís will we wouldnít need any of the Torah. The proper godly behaviors would be written on our hearts...

Again, Lutheran is m 101 which obviously is not Stoffregenesque theology: We neither need nor follow Torah. The law IS written on our hearts.
I think this is misleading. The catechism includes Ex. 20:5-6 as what God says about these commandments. Clearly what we are teaching confirmands when using Luther's catechism is God's Law as written in Exodus, fulfilled in Christ, and also written on our hearts. As Christians we don't need the Torah to be saved but it is one of the means the Holy Spirit uses to convict us of sin and lead us to repentance.

George Rahn

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #196 on: December 03, 2021, 11:41:38 AM »
If we were able to follow Godís will we wouldnít need any of the Torah. The proper godly behaviors would be written on our hearts...

Again, Lutheran is m 101 which obviously is not Stoffregenesque theology: We neither need nor follow Torah. The law IS written on our hearts.

So why do we have all of our Confessions? Why did Luther explain the Ten Commandments? We seem to still require written documents because whatever is written on our hearts isn't enough.

Without the Torah and its teachings, Jesus' death/sacrifice would mean nothing.


Do you consider the Torah to be God's Word? Is the Bible (both testaments) the authority for our faith and life?


We don't NEED to follow the Torah, and neither did the Jews. Obedience never brought salvation. We should want to follow God's instructions (a better translation of torah than "law"), just like children should want to obey their parents.

There were Lutheran attempts to ďcatchĒ the substantive basis of the unique New Testament gospel located in Jesus Christ.  Wasnít P. Melanchthonís 1521 Loci an attempt to encapsulate that basis prior to the collection of documents in the Book of Concord?  The purpose was not to codify but to clarify what was being sourced in the New Testament.  These attempts leading to a body of teaching (corpus doctrinae) were to encapsulate what was necessary and sufficient for the public preaching of the living voice (viva vox evangelii). 

Also, M. Luther in both the small catechism (for the laity) as well in the large catechism (for educated clergy) placed the 10 commandments at the head of the catechism so people would ponder their own sinner-life in order to come to a state of repentance.  Primarily meant as a diagnostic tool, Lutherís meaning to the 10 commandments were analogous to how Jesus re-interpreted the commandments in Matthew 5.  They were to drive the sinner-in-truth to forgiveness in Christís death for others and so should lead the reader to part 2 of the catechism, ie. The Apostles Creed and Lutherís meaning to each article there.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 11:50:51 AM by George Rahn »

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12132
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #197 on: December 03, 2021, 11:52:11 AM »
I donít think itís misleading at all. Itís pure Lutheran teaching.

Perhaps, however, I should be more succinct. We donít derive the law from either Torah or Exodus or Deut. Itís the law written on our hearts which we certainly can express in various writings.

It's a common misunderstanding even among the most-educated. I recall a spring seminar my 4th year at Sem StL. Voelz and Lessing, among others, were having an on-stage discussion. At one point, Reed Lessing said something about the OT ceremonial law no longer applying to us, implying that the OT moral law does. Voelz responded, "I don't think any of the OT law applies to us!" Lessing was silent. Later, at afternoon refreshments, I saw Gibbs and said, "Dr. Gibbs! Luther's Works, vol 35!" He immediately understood and said, "Absolutely! "How Christians Should Regard Moses. Jim was absolutely right!" Later, I saw Voelz and said "Nice expression, Dr. Voelz, of "How Christians Should Regard Moses." "It's gotta be that way," he replied.

It's a common misunderstanding. In 4th year Biblical Theology with Gibbs, someone mentioned something similar, about only the OT moral law and not the ceremonial law applying to us. Gibbs said, "Guys! We don't get the Ten Commandments from the OT. We get it from the law written on our hearts." He then implied something along the lines of, as 4th year students, about to be ordained, we should know that.

Not long ago, I cited and gave a link to Luther's sermon. It's online in several places. Perhaps if Brian read it he would have an answer to his questions which, after all, are just questions, not statements, that he already knows the answers, though they may not be Lutheran ones.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 01:15:18 PM by Donald_Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44252
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #198 on: December 03, 2021, 12:10:59 PM »
I donít think itís misleading at all. Itís pure Lutheran teaching.

Perhaps, however, I should be more succinct. We donít derive the law from either Torah or Exodus or Deut. Itís the law written on our hearts which we certainly can express in various writings.


Our hearts are still sinful. We can't trust them to be a reliable resource. Eve and Adam had sinless hearts, but that didn't stop them from disobeying God.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13255
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #199 on: December 03, 2021, 12:26:52 PM »
So, which is it? The written in the heart?

Jeremiah 31:33 (ESV)
33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Romans 2:15 (ESV)
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.


Or the revealed Law of God written down for our learning and reference?


Need it be either/or, can it not be both/and? Normal humans have a basic innate understanding of right and wrong, to which Paul points in Romans. That innate knowledge, however, has been blurred by sin and corrupted by self-justification and rationalizing what we want rather than what we ought. Thus, we need the written record given by God to remind and clarify what we should just know.



 
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10578
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #200 on: December 03, 2021, 07:06:46 PM »
And several months ago a dear friend who is still in the ELCA extended to me an invitation to one of the ELCA FB groups for clergy. I wa on for about 72 hours. There is a dangerous place. It was abundantly clear that the requisite auto da fe would be carried out by anyone not keeping to the tenets of the one true faith. So anyone holding to the points I listed in my op would be torn to shreds by the bacchantes inhabiting that ďsafe space.Ē 

Which is pretty much what it is like to be at any gathering of ELCA clergy.

My experience is similar.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Is the ALPB Forum Online a safe space?
« Reply #201 on: December 03, 2021, 08:46:31 PM »
And several months ago a dear friend who is still in the ELCA extended to me an invitation to one of the ELCA FB groups for clergy. I wa on for about 72 hours. There is a dangerous place. It was abundantly clear that the requisite auto da fe would be carried out by anyone not keeping to the tenets of the one true faith. So anyone holding to the points I listed in my op would be torn to shreds by the bacchantes inhabiting that ďsafe space.Ē 

Which is pretty much what it is like to be at any gathering of ELCA clergy.

My experience is similar.

Would turning down the rhetoric help? For example, staying away from titles like "bacchantes" or describing their actions as "auto da de"? Perhaps you did not use such expressions in the Facebook group. But do you see how such expressions might arouse angry responses?

I didn't know these struggles were still happening in the ELCA. I guess I thought that with so many people moved on to LCMC, NALC, and beyond, that would defuse things but it sounds like the intensity from ten years ago is still there or lately aroused. Lord, guard and guide the hearts of the faithful.
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.