Author Topic: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division  (Read 3309 times)

peterm

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2021, 11:41:10 AM »
What also trips us up are the assumptions that people make about others on the basis of their position on one item. For example, many seem to assume that anyone who voted for Trump is also a white supremacist and needs to be treated as such. People too readily connect the dots and draw conclusions. This become especially dangerous when those making assumptions have very little accurate information about what those they disagree with actually believe. Cross reference the "Understanding issues/working together" thread.

And the flipside of that coin is that it is assumed by many that those who did not vote for Trump are out to destroy the country, or are unpatriotic, or unchristian libitards; all things I have been accused of in the past couple weeks which is interesting because I don't share with anyone how I voted.  IMO there is too much rhetoric and not enough actual conversation going on, and way too much willingness to go after the speck in the other guy's eye without critically examining the log in our own.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Dan Fienen

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2021, 11:43:53 AM »
What also trips us up are the assumptions that people make about others on the basis of their position on one item. For example, many seem to assume that anyone who voted for Trump is also a white supremacist and needs to be treated as such. People too readily connect the dots and draw conclusions. This become especially dangerous when those making assumptions have very little accurate information about what those they disagree with actually believe. Cross reference the "Understanding issues/working together" thread.

And the flipside of that coin is that it is assumed by many that those who did not vote for Trump are out to destroy the country, or are unpatriotic, or unchristian libitards; all things I have been accused of in the past couple weeks which is interesting because I don't share with anyone how I voted.  IMO there is too much rhetoric and not enough actual conversation going on, and way too much willingness to go after the speck in the other guy's eye without critically examining the log in our own.
Agreed
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Dave Benke

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2021, 12:15:45 PM »
Ben Carson spoke at one of our national LCMS gatherings a few years ago.  As stated, he was civil, reasoned and carried himself and his life story with dignity.  He ran against one of the least civil public figures in memory in Donald Trump, a person with whom he had little if anything in common.  His service as HUD chairman was in my opinion someone doing the best he could with what he had.    Trump is all about housing and development, and has never been about affordability for the course of his entire public life.  So whatever deficit in experience Ben Carson had, at least he understood what affordable housing actually is.

Trump notably received a major tax abatement, called J51, for building Trump Tower on devastated/underutilized urban property there on 5th and 56th in Manhattan.  The same tax abatement was used appropriately to build the 3000 Nehemiah Plan homes in Brooklyn on acreage that had burned to the ground.  That housing was and continues to be built both as rental and owner housing on an actually affordable basis by organized congregations.  The organization was and is run through the Industrial Areas Foundation community organizing effort, which is the foundational child many decades later of Saul Alinsky.  I received my training in community organizing through the IAF. 

In terms of civil discussion and community organizing, I was one of those who spoke often to elected officials and power brokers.  Our training was very specific with regard to civility.  To be a public person is to be a citizen.  To be a citizen, conversation must be held that leads to the achievement of the ability to act on behalf of commonly held needs.  Our primary needs at the time - and they're still about the same - were decent public education, availability of food in areas considered food deserts, affordable housing, responsive policing and security, and training toward jobs.  The conversations we held and hold were specifically not about shouting and screaming, but always about ongoing relationships with officials that would produce the results needed.  So we were and are direct in approach, direct in pointing out what was and is missing, and direct in identifying achievable change.  The Nehemiah Plan was opposed by every public official until it wasn't opposed.  That process is actually the basis of my doctor of ministry thesis. 

Therefore I know civil discussion on controverted issues can be held and can lead to positive change.

Dave Benke

Randy Bosch

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2021, 02:39:21 PM »
Ben Carson spoke at one of our national LCMS gatherings a few years ago.  As stated, he was civil, reasoned and carried himself and his life story with dignity.  He ran against one of the least civil public figures in memory in Donald Trump, a person with whom he had little if anything in common.  His service as HUD chairman was in my opinion someone doing the best he could with what he had.    Trump is all about housing and development, and has never been about affordability for the course of his entire public life.  So whatever deficit in experience Ben Carson had, at least he understood what affordable housing actually is.

Trump notably received a major tax abatement, called J51, for building Trump Tower on devastated/underutilized urban property there on 5th and 56th in Manhattan.  The same tax abatement was used appropriately to build the 3000 Nehemiah Plan homes in Brooklyn on acreage that had burned to the ground.  That housing was and continues to be built both as rental and owner housing on an actually affordable basis by organized congregations.  The organization was and is run through the Industrial Areas Foundation community organizing effort, which is the foundational child many decades later of Saul Alinsky.  I received my training in community organizing through the IAF. 

In terms of civil discussion and community organizing, I was one of those who spoke often to elected officials and power brokers.  Our training was very specific with regard to civility.  To be a public person is to be a citizen.  To be a citizen, conversation must be held that leads to the achievement of the ability to act on behalf of commonly held needs.  Our primary needs at the time - and they're still about the same - were decent public education, availability of food in areas considered food deserts, affordable housing, responsive policing and security, and training toward jobs.  The conversations we held and hold were specifically not about shouting and screaming, but always about ongoing relationships with officials that would produce the results needed.  So we were and are direct in approach, direct in pointing out what was and is missing, and direct in identifying achievable change.  The Nehemiah Plan was opposed by every public official until it wasn't opposed.  That process is actually the basis of my doctor of ministry thesis. 

Therefore I know civil discussion on controverted issues can be held and can lead to positive change.

Dave Benke

An extraordinary application of hypomone/hypomeno : patient endurance.
An extraordinary lesson to be learned and applied as a general virtue and as a characteristic of love, linked to hope and enduring suffering.
Thank you.  And for all, Phil. 4:9.


Robert Johnson

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2021, 03:20:04 PM »
Come on Charles, are [you] really willing to defend anything anyone on the left does?

The answer to that so far is: Yes.

Charles Austin

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2021, 04:12:01 PM »
No. I do not “defend” yelling at people as they deal with generally private bodily functions. I thought I said that.
But I do understand why it is done, and can Support the yeller’s commitment, passion and intentions.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2021, 04:41:15 PM »
No. I do not “defend” yelling at people as they deal with generally private bodily functions. I thought I said that.

No, you did not You said:

...I oppose armed violence. Yelling at someone while they are in the loo is hardly armed violence.

IOW, you did "defend" it. Hence the comments by others.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2021, 04:41:59 PM »
No. I do not “defend” yelling at people as they deal with generally private bodily functions. I thought I said that.
But I do understand why it is done, and can Support the yeller’s commitment, passion and intentions.
I also understand why it is done, and can support anyone's commitment, passion and intentions if we understand those intentions in their terms. That is true of most people who do things that are clearly wrong and worthy of being condemned. Your refusal to call out the perpetrator is what is relevant here. If I were the yeller, I would consider you an ally and feel supported, not confronted, by your words.

Dave Benke

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2021, 05:53:04 PM »
Ben Carson spoke at one of our national LCMS gatherings a few years ago.  As stated, he was civil, reasoned and carried himself and his life story with dignity.  He ran against one of the least civil public figures in memory in Donald Trump, a person with whom he had little if anything in common.  His service as HUD chairman was in my opinion someone doing the best he could with what he had.    Trump is all about housing and development, and has never been about affordability for the course of his entire public life.  So whatever deficit in experience Ben Carson had, at least he understood what affordable housing actually is.

Trump notably received a major tax abatement, called J51, for building Trump Tower on devastated/underutilized urban property there on 5th and 56th in Manhattan.  The same tax abatement was used appropriately to build the 3000 Nehemiah Plan homes in Brooklyn on acreage that had burned to the ground.  That housing was and continues to be built both as rental and owner housing on an actually affordable basis by organized congregations.  The organization was and is run through the Industrial Areas Foundation community organizing effort, which is the foundational child many decades later of Saul Alinsky.  I received my training in community organizing through the IAF. 

In terms of civil discussion and community organizing, I was one of those who spoke often to elected officials and power brokers.  Our training was very specific with regard to civility.  To be a public person is to be a citizen.  To be a citizen, conversation must be held that leads to the achievement of the ability to act on behalf of commonly held needs.  Our primary needs at the time - and they're still about the same - were decent public education, availability of food in areas considered food deserts, affordable housing, responsive policing and security, and training toward jobs.  The conversations we held and hold were specifically not about shouting and screaming, but always about ongoing relationships with officials that would produce the results needed.  So we were and are direct in approach, direct in pointing out what was and is missing, and direct in identifying achievable change.  The Nehemiah Plan was opposed by every public official until it wasn't opposed.  That process is actually the basis of my doctor of ministry thesis. 

Therefore I know civil discussion on controverted issues can be held and can lead to positive change.

Dave Benke

An extraordinary application of hypomone/hypomeno : patient endurance.
An extraordinary lesson to be learned and applied as a general virtue and as a characteristic of love, linked to hope and enduring suffering.
Thank you.  And for all, Phil. 4:9.

Boom!  We did a whole series of messages and explorations last year in person and online on Romans 5:1-7, with emphasis on vs. 3-4, where hypomeno is central.   Hope is at the end of the road poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Dave Benke

Charles Austin

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2021, 06:28:24 PM »
I can’t be responsible for how someone would feel about something I said. “Understanding“ need not mean “approval.“
The responses are not just approval or condemnation.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2021, 08:50:11 PM »
I can’t be responsible for how someone would feel about something I said. “Understanding“ need not mean “approval.“
The responses are not just approval or condemnation.


Agreed. I believe that you and I understand many of the LCMS's policies; but we don't agree with them and neither do we condemn them for having them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2021, 08:54:16 PM »
I can’t be responsible for how someone would feel about something I said. “Understanding“ need not mean “approval.“
The responses are not just approval or condemnation.


Agreed. I believe that you and I understand many of the LCMS's policies; but we don't agree with them and neither do we condemn them for having them.

Woosshh! Right out into the stratosphere!   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2021, 03:54:39 AM »
Pastor Kirchner, can you and your cohort have only an “approve” or “condemn” reaction to everything? Do you ever consider that there are real, complex, flawed, but valued human beings involved when we consider actions that disturb us or the civil order?
A protestor passionate enough to take action might stray from the “law” or “civility,” and perhaps they need more understanding than condemnation. Perhaps we need to look at the issue that brought on the action. What leads people who are normally “civil”  to do things that violate law, civility and order? What brings them to actions putting themselves at risk?
Quick and legalistic condemnation is not the only response to such things.
And, lest the howls begin, I am not giving broad endorsement to armed violence or destructive rioting or planned mayhem against people or our institutions.
Folks here hate tales from the ancient past. Nonetheless, listen.
In 1969 (I think, maybe 1968), a group of young people “occupied” the church where I was pastor. They wanted the churches in town to help them start a youth center and keep police from harassing “Long-haired hippies.” They broke in on a Saturday night and said they would not leave until they were heard and got some response.
Response One would be to call the cops and have them arrested.
We took Response Two. One of my council members - a Navy recruiter - and I sat on the floor of the chancel with them, talking for two hours. We called in the high school principle, a town councilman and a “youth pastor” from another church (while two police cars, lights flashing, stood outside the church). Everyone but me just begged them to leave and not “cause trouble.”
By about 5 am, we had beginnings of “understanding.” At about 7 am, they left the church. Two returned, at my invitation, for the 8:30 and 10 am service where I explained to people the “stories behind” the heated voices members heard on the radio that morning.
Further discussions ensued and while the town never got a real “youth center,” I think the cops eased off on the “long-haired hippies” who in reality were just a few Dubuque teens and young adults.
I took a lot of personal heat from that and related activities, but I’m still glad we didn’t go quickly to Response One.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2021, 06:39:51 AM »
Charles, you make some good points. I  wonder if it might be possible to extend some of the same kind of patience, sympathy, and understanding to people who are not of your cohort?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Charles Austin

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Re: Ben Carson on politics and cultural division
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2021, 08:28:51 AM »
Yes, it is possible. And it happens quite often.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.