Author Topic: Columbus Day and evangelism  (Read 2363 times)

peter_speckhard

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Columbus Day and evangelism
« on: October 11, 2021, 09:20:23 AM »
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-10-11/columbus-islam-european-views-crusades-indigenous-americans

This is an interesting take. The LA Times, of course, thinks entirely in terms of Christianity's crusades against Islam without focusing on Islam's efforts to destroy Christianity since its inception.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 09:26:43 AM »
"While Europeans and white Americans aimed the warlike mind-set of the Crusades against Native American populations, they also appropriated Indigenous iconography into their way of war. Hence, Americans flew Apache and Kiowa helicopters over Afghanistan; the Navy launched Tomahawk missiles at Syrian targets; and Black Hawk helicopters ferried the Navy SEALs in the nighttime raid in Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden, code-named Geronimo.

Embedded in these names, and in these wars, is a historical through line that goes back to Columbus. Recognizing the history of these seemingly disparate yet bound cultures helps to lay the groundwork for richer views of the past and new forms of solidarity, collective thinking and action."

Wow! What a stretch!
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 10:01:29 AM »
I have not "observed" Columbus days for years, even when I was in the midst of the big, phony, New York celebration.
   My people were here first, about 500 years before the mercenary from Genoa (there was no "Italy" then, and he was sailing for the king and queen of Castille). Ferdnand and Isabella had money to finance the voyage because they had just driven the "Moors" from their last stronghold on the Iberian peninsula.
   Five hundred years earlier, my people came, fished, got wood to repair their ships, and found that their small settlements were not well received by the people already there. There was trouble, and the native people actually triumphed. The Vikings departed, probably leaving behind some cats that evolved into the species we know as Maine Coon Cat.
   The Vikings having lost their influence in the 15th Century, were largely forgotten when Columbo sought venture capital for his quasi-religious and mostly pecuniary mission.
   So until there is a "Leif Erickson Day," and I hope there will never be one, Oct. 12 is just another day for me.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 10:08:04 AM »
I have not "observed" Columbus days for years, even when I was in the midst of the big, phony, New York celebration.
   My people were here first, about 500 years before the mercenary from Genoa (there was no "Italy" then, and he was sailing for the king and queen of Castille). Ferdnand and Isabella had money to finance the voyage because they had just driven the "Moors" from their last stronghold on the Iberian peninsula.
   Five hundred years earlier, my people came, fished, got wood to repair their ships, and found that their small settlements were not well received by the people already there. There was trouble, and the native people actually triumphed. The Vikings departed, probably leaving behind some cats that evolved into the species we know as Maine Coon Cat.
   The Vikings having lost their influence in the 15th Century, were largely forgotten when Columbo sought venture capital for his quasi-religious and mostly pecuniary mission.
   So until there is a "Leif Erickson Day," and I hope there will never be one, Oct. 12 is just another day for me.
Really? When Vikings found that they were not well received by the locals, they left? They really were Minnesota nice all along!

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 10:37:40 AM »
I have not "observed" Columbus days for years, even when I was in the midst of the big, phony, New York celebration.
   My people were here first, about 500 years before the mercenary from Genoa (there was no "Italy" then, and he was sailing for the king and queen of Castille). Ferdnand and Isabella had money to finance the voyage because they had just driven the "Moors" from their last stronghold on the Iberian peninsula.
   Five hundred years earlier, my people came, fished, got wood to repair their ships, and found that their small settlements were not well received by the people already there. There was trouble, and the native people actually triumphed. The Vikings departed, probably leaving behind some cats that evolved into the species we know as Maine Coon Cat.
   The Vikings having lost their influence in the 15th Century, were largely forgotten when Columbo sought venture capital for his quasi-religious and mostly pecuniary mission.
   So until there is a "Leif Erickson Day," and I hope there will never be one, Oct. 12 is just another day for me.
Really? When Vikings found that they were not well received by the locals, they left? They really were Minnesota nice all along!

Well, they DID live near Kensington MN. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 10:44:09 AM »
Long story short: 1630ís Roma kicked out of England. Married into Wampanoag tribe in northeast. Chief was Old Chicken Warrup. Peaceful Indians.

Peter (Iíll take the Obama estate as reparations) Garrison
Pete Garrison, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2021, 12:00:42 PM »
Actually, Peter, those who are already living in Newfoundland, which the Vikings called skraelings, drove them out. After what were probably multiple attacks on their small settlement, the. Norsemen withdrew.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2021, 12:16:47 PM »
The difference between Leif Erickson and Columbus is significant not simply in terms of when they arrived, why they came, or whether they were nice people. The historical thread of Western Civilization's connection to the Western Hemisphere goes through Columbus, not Erickson. Leif Erickson might have invented the light bulb, too, but if he did it made no difference and didn't change the world.

I think people miss this point when they say we shouldn't have Columbus Day because he was a bad person whom we shouldn't be celebrating. Be that as it may (or may not), we aren't necessarily celebrating the man, we're celebrating an event that changed the world. The question is whether the event improved the world and is thus worth celebrating or whether it was a catastrophe that made the world worse and should be lamented.

Even calling it "Indigenous Peoples Day" is simply a comment on Western Civilization/Europe/Christendom. Nobody is indigenous to anywhere going all the way back. Everyone's ancestors expanded, migrated, conquered, etc. for people to be wherever they were before Europeans found them. Cultures overwhelmed each other and displaced each other everywhere. By "indigenous" we really simply mean people of any culture anywhere before it made contact with or was incorporated into Western Civilization.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2021, 12:19:19 PM »
Actually, Peter, those who are already living in Newfoundland, which the Vikings called skraelings, drove them out. After what were probably multiple attacks on their small settlement, the. Norsemen withdrew.

Scandanavian colonist building empire, driven back by indigenous peoples protecting their lands!

peter_speckhard

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 12:36:01 PM »
Actually, Peter, those who are already living in Newfoundland, which the Vikings called skraelings, drove them out. After what were probably multiple attacks on their small settlement, the. Norsemen withdrew.

Scandanavian colonist building empire, driven back by indigenous peoples protecting their lands!
On a globe, the distance from New Foundland (racist, colonialist name for a province. For shame!) to Greenland, Iceland, and other Viking lands is not all that great. Undoubtedly the indigenous people who drove the Vikings out of New Foundland had migrated much further (though over land) in previous generations to get there, and history shows that such tribes were not known for pacifism and getting along with each other. So two northern tribes fought over some land in the north. Big deal. Probably happened all the time. The only difference in the case of the Vikings was that they presumably had different skin color. Only by buying into and deliberately perpetuating the fiction of race do we think of the clash of Leif Erickson's venture into North America as somehow different. Except, of course, the Leif had been converted to Christianity and so was a potential torch-bearer for Christendom. Why anyone would think the Vikings retreat was a good thing rather than a bad thing is beyond me, again, unless we're race-obsessed or hate Western Civilization.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 12:42:11 PM »
For some years, one of my old firms had offices in both Virginia and California.  Columbus Day was deemed a Holiday in Virginia, so staff were given the day off with pay.  California did not deem Columbus Day a Holiday.
If Columbus had been able to journey on to California, he might have arrived there on the day after Thanksgiving, so we voted to declare Columbus Day to be the day after Thanksgiving in California, garnering a 4-day weekend.
Sometimes even the most improbable reasoning can benefit people...sometimes.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 12:45:57 PM »
May we never forget NFL Coach Bud Grant who coached the
Minnesota Vikings from 1967 to 1983, 85.  He won 158 games
and lost 76 games.  He won 11 Central division titles and took
the Vikings to 4 Super Bowls yet never won a Super Bowl.

The Vikings played hard-nosed football and were never allowed
hand warmers or heaters on the sidelines in their Minneapolis
stadium.  Bud Grant was a true Viking whose stoic face on the
sidelines in freezing and snowy weather made his players play
tough.
 

Dave Benke

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2021, 01:36:30 PM »
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-10-11/columbus-islam-european-views-crusades-indigenous-americans

This is an interesting take. The LA Times, of course, thinks entirely in terms of Christianity's crusades against Islam without focusing on Islam's efforts to destroy Christianity since its inception.

I think the article brings out some really fine insights as to the way the early explorers thought about the world in church-political terms.  Naming items after Islamic weaponry and clothing in those they met to me indicates they had enormous respect for the Muslims, whom they apparently saw as having gotten there before them.  And since in 1453 the Muslim warriors were banging on the gates of Vienna, that respect was well-placed. 

The thing is, the Muslims had indeed not gotten to this side of the pond before those early explorers, who demonized them inappropriately.  So the point the editorial makes is accurate in the end, if insufficiently stated in the beginning.

In Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel the initial story is that of Pizzaro, who entered the Inca empire and slaughtered 7000 people in a couple of hours because the 24 men with him were on horseback and had swords.  And a priest.  The priest, in Diamond's telling, dismounted, confronted whoever was on site with a Bible, asked the people in Spanish whether they believed it, and when they failed to reply "Yes, we believe in the inerrant Scripture" reported to Pizzaro that they were heathens and could be killed. 

So a question in our "exploration" of the significance of this day might have to do with the role of religion in colonization and how deeply "manifest destiny" was linked to the eternal superiority of the Christian perspective to the level of killing as enemies unto eternity those who held different beliefs. 

Dave Benke


peter_speckhard

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2021, 02:07:52 PM »

So a question in our "exploration" of the significance of this day might have to do with the role of religion in colonization and how deeply "manifest destiny" was linked to the eternal superiority of the Christian perspective to the level of killing as enemies unto eternity those who held different beliefs. 

Dave Benke
The logical flow seems to begin with the idea that colonialism is an unqualified evil. That is the ground level given. Building upon that given is the fact that Christians played a key role in colonialism. Christianity's goodness (which is real and great) is nevertheless qualified, because the evil of colonialism is unqualified. I tend to look at it from the other direction. The spread of Christianity is the unqualified good. That is the ground level given. Building upon that given is the fact that colonialism played a key role. The evil of colonialism (which is real and great) is nevertheless qualified because the good of Christianity is unqualified. And the evils of colonialism such as the slaughter of helpless unbelievers were a betrayal of Christianity, not an example of it, and the not the central gist of the story.

This view of Christianity parallels my view of Western Civ and America. I do not minimize the evils, but I do insist the evil is not the essence, and I do insist that on balance Western Civ and America, cancerous tumors and all, have been positive forces for good preferable to any real alternative available at the time. Columbus Day (not Leif Erickson Day) links my life here in Munster today with the world of the New Testament, St. Paul, Emperor Constantine, St. Augustine, Charlemagne, Aquinas, Luther, et al. I am glad to be so linked so I celebrate the linkage.     

« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 02:33:39 PM by peter_speckhard »

Charles Austin

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Re: Columbus Day and evangelism
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2021, 02:29:17 PM »
Peter:
Except, of course, the Leif had been converted to Christianity and so was a potential torch-bearer for Christendom. Why anyone would think the Vikings retreat was a good thing rather than a bad thing is beyond me, again, unless we're race-obsessed or hate Western Civilization.
Me:
Not a good thing. Not a bad thing. Just a thing. In general the Vikings were not colonizers. ĎThey pillaged. In Russia they traded goods and were merchants.
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