Author Topic: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat  (Read 7052 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2021, 03:14:11 PM »
Peter:
Every abortion is literally a matter of life or death for an innocent person.
Me:
And there is the problem again. The world, or at least a large segment of it, does not believe that the minute a sperm hits an egg you have an innocent person. Not gonna argue that here, just want to note that in decades of discussions, you have not convincingly made your case for that.
Put it this way. At conception, whatever you think it is is biologically, morally, and anthropologically the exact same as a wanted baby. Whether or not the mother wants it does not affect the essence (humanity, fetushood?) of the thing she wants or does not want.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2021, 03:36:56 PM »
Peter:
Every abortion is literally a matter of life or death for an innocent person.
Me:
And there is the problem again. The world, or at least a large segment of it, does not believe that the minute a sperm hits an egg you have an innocent person. Not gonna argue that here, just want to note that in decades of discussions, you have not convincingly made your case for that.
Put it this way. At conception, whatever you think it is is biologically, morally, and anthropologically the exact same as a wanted baby. Whether or not the mother wants it does not affect the essence (humanity, fetushood?) of the thing she wants or does not want.


What if the conception takes place in a petri dish?


Oh, and as good Lutherans, we do not believe that anyone is innocent. Original sin, y'know.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

pearson

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2021, 04:09:05 PM »

The world, or at least a large segment of it, does not believe that the minute a sperm hits an egg you have an innocent person.


I wonder how you acquired the knowledge that this is the case.

And I'm not aware of very many abortions that occur "the minute a sperm hits an egg."

Tom Pearson

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2021, 04:26:19 PM »
Peter:
Every abortion is literally a matter of life or death for an innocent person.
Me:
And there is the problem again. The world, or at least a large segment of it, does not believe that the minute a sperm hits an egg you have an innocent person. Not gonna argue that here, just want to note that in decades of discussions, you have not convincingly made your case for that.
Put it this way. At conception, whatever you think it is is biologically, morally, and anthropologically the exact same as a wanted baby. Whether or not the mother wants it does not affect the essence (humanity, fetushood?) of the thing she wants or does not want.


What if the conception takes place in a petri dish?


Oh, and as good Lutherans, we do not believe that anyone is innocent. Original sin, y'know.
You arenít a good Lutheran because you go out of your way not to call a thing what it is but to obfuscate. Nevertheless, I trust sane readers to know in what sense I meant innocent.

Dave Benke

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2021, 04:33:07 PM »
This speaks to a point Peter made upstream, upending his point to some degree (from a recent Pew Research article but with survey from 2019):  Sizable minorities of Republicans and Democrats said in a 2019 survey that they did not agree with the dominant position on abortion policy of the party they identify with or lean toward. About one-third of Republicans or GOP leaners said they did not agree with their party on abortion (35%). This includes about one-in-ten (12%) who said they agreed with the Democratic Party on abortion and 23% who said they did not agree with either party. Among Democrats and those who lean toward that party, 29% did not agree with their party on abortion, including 7% who said they agreed with the GOP and 22% who said they didnít agree with either party. These views also vary to some degree within party by age and education.  Ergo there are apparently plenty of pro-life Democrats.

Here's the link to the entire survey from this past summer:  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/17/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/.

The overall percentages are roughly the same - 60% approve of abortion in most/all cases, and 40%ish say wrong in all/most cases. 

Since this is actually pertinent to the thread topic, it seems relevant to the dialog we've been having.

Dave Benke

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2021, 04:34:54 PM »
Peter:
Every abortion is literally a matter of life or death for an innocent person.
Me:
And there is the problem again. The world, or at least a large segment of it, does not believe that the minute a sperm hits an egg you have an innocent person. Not gonna argue that here, just want to note that in decades of discussions, you have not convincingly made your case for that.

And the world, or at least a large segment of it, believed that slaves were not truly, equally human.  So what?  Do you defend that thinking too?

David Garner

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2021, 04:46:36 PM »
Oh, and as good Lutherans, we do not believe that anyone is innocent. Original sin, y'know.
You arenít a good Lutheran because you go out of your way not to call a thing what it is but to obfuscate. Nevertheless, I trust sane readers to know in what sense I meant innocent.

Which is good news for Pastor Stoffregen, since his logic necessarily entails that it is not sin to kill him.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2021, 05:11:55 PM »
This speaks to a point Peter made upstream, upending his point to some degree (from a recent Pew Research article but with survey from 2019):  Sizable minorities of Republicans and Democrats said in a 2019 survey that they did not agree with the dominant position on abortion policy of the party they identify with or lean toward. About one-third of Republicans or GOP leaners said they did not agree with their party on abortion (35%). This includes about one-in-ten (12%) who said they agreed with the Democratic Party on abortion and 23% who said they did not agree with either party. Among Democrats and those who lean toward that party, 29% did not agree with their party on abortion, including 7% who said they agreed with the GOP and 22% who said they didnít agree with either party. These views also vary to some degree within party by age and education.  Ergo there are apparently plenty of pro-life Democrats.

Here's the link to the entire survey from this past summer:  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/17/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/.

The overall percentages are roughly the same - 60% approve of abortion in most/all cases, and 40%ish say wrong in all/most cases. 

Since this is actually pertinent to the thread topic, it seems relevant to the dialog we've been having.

Dave Benke
But the opinion poll only counts when it comes to votes. This is why Trump made such inroads with social conservatives who otherwise would have to hold their nose to vote for him or vote third party. He actually advanced conservative positions. Thatís why people voted for him or voted against him. If we elected Sanders president and he enacted socialist policies, it wouldnít matter in the slightest whether everyone who voted for him supported those policies. Their only contribution was voting for Sanders or for his opponent. Free-enterprise Capitalists for Sanders would be akin to pro-life Democrats.

Dave Benke

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2021, 06:02:36 PM »
This speaks to a point Peter made upstream, upending his point to some degree (from a recent Pew Research article but with survey from 2019):  Sizable minorities of Republicans and Democrats said in a 2019 survey that they did not agree with the dominant position on abortion policy of the party they identify with or lean toward. About one-third of Republicans or GOP leaners said they did not agree with their party on abortion (35%). This includes about one-in-ten (12%) who said they agreed with the Democratic Party on abortion and 23% who said they did not agree with either party. Among Democrats and those who lean toward that party, 29% did not agree with their party on abortion, including 7% who said they agreed with the GOP and 22% who said they didnít agree with either party. These views also vary to some degree within party by age and education.  Ergo there are apparently plenty of pro-life Democrats.

Here's the link to the entire survey from this past summer:  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/17/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/.

The overall percentages are roughly the same - 60% approve of abortion in most/all cases, and 40%ish say wrong in all/most cases. 

Since this is actually pertinent to the thread topic, it seems relevant to the dialog we've been having.

Dave Benke
But the opinion poll only counts when it comes to votes. This is why Trump made such inroads with social conservatives who otherwise would have to hold their nose to vote for him or vote third party. He actually advanced conservative positions. Thatís why people voted for him or voted against him. If we elected Sanders president and he enacted socialist policies, it wouldnít matter in the slightest whether everyone who voted for him supported those policies. Their only contribution was voting for Sanders or for his opponent. Free-enterprise Capitalists for Sanders would be akin to pro-life Democrats.

That's a way to look at it.  I actually don't think the opinion poll only counts when it comes to votes.  We take our little 15 person polls here to see what some group thinks about some issue.  That's a good thing to know absent an election, even for those of us in positions of spiritual leadership. 

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2021, 07:27:26 PM »
In what sense does an opinion poll make a difference when it contradicts the actual vote? If Biden is at 40% approval does that mean his boneheaded decrees arenít binding? The poll that mattered happened last November. Polls today are mere noise.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2021, 08:02:43 PM »
"Truth has nothing to do with the number of people it convinces."  Paul Claudel

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2021, 08:50:33 PM »
There's a new term: "christo-fascist abortion legislation."

"In another video, a protester screams through a megaphone that she 'loves sacrificing children.'"

https://www.foxnews.com/us/f-your-god-antifa-protesters-disrupt-pro-life-prayer-vigil-on-texas-college-campus
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 09:35:38 PM by Donald_Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Dave Benke

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2021, 09:33:24 PM »
In what sense does an opinion poll make a difference when it contradicts the actual vote? If Biden is at 40% approval does that mean his boneheaded decrees arenít binding? The poll that mattered happened last November. Polls today are mere noise.

Ask the Pew Research people.  I don't think they conduct their polls for the sole reason of tracking the "actual vote."  They're researching what people believe, or at least what they say they believe to them at the time they say it to them.  How that translates into votes is another thing. 

The polls have been saying for probably five years that people are dropping out of church, that the "nones" are on the rise.  Are those polls noisy junk to be ignored? 

You keep stretching in these posts to I guess make your points.  The Pew polls show that there are plenty of pro-life Democrats out there.  As far as I'm concerned, they're right.  And as far as I'm concerned those people can have a salutary effect on various elections in their party on a variety of issues including the issue of life.  As they say, your mileage may vary, but in this case, the Pew is sitting with me.

Dave Benke

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2021, 10:33:45 PM »
In what sense does an opinion poll make a difference when it contradicts the actual vote? If Biden is at 40% approval does that mean his boneheaded decrees arenít binding? The poll that mattered happened last November. Polls today are mere noise.

Ask the Pew Research people.  I don't think they conduct their polls for the sole reason of tracking the "actual vote."  They're researching what people believe, or at least what they say they believe to them at the time they say it to them.  How that translates into votes is another thing. 

The polls have been saying for probably five years that people are dropping out of church, that the "nones" are on the rise.  Are those polls noisy junk to be ignored? 

You keep stretching in these posts to I guess make your points.  The Pew polls show that there are plenty of pro-life Democrats out there.  As far as I'm concerned, they're right.  And as far as I'm concerned those people can have a salutary effect on various elections in their party on a variety of issues including the issue of life.  As they say, your mileage may vary, but in this case, the Pew is sitting with me.

Dave Benke

If there are truly "plenty" of pro-life Democrats out there, then they are doing a very poor job of impacting their party.  It keeps drifting, more and more, to the absolute pro-choice position.  You'd think that if there were truly so many pro-life Democrats out there, that they would at least give some pause to party leaders and their insistence on abortion.  But they don't.  Hence, I think Rev. Speckhard is correct that such claims are but empty noise.  Or put another way, how has your being a registered Democrat slowed (let alone stopped) New York from being so pro-abortion -- you know, like cheering when the most egregious legislation was passed a couple of years ago?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reflections of a pro-life Democrat
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2021, 10:35:02 PM »
In what sense does an opinion poll make a difference when it contradicts the actual vote? If Biden is at 40% approval does that mean his boneheaded decrees arenít binding? The poll that mattered happened last November. Polls today are mere noise.

Ask the Pew Research people.  I don't think they conduct their polls for the sole reason of tracking the "actual vote."  They're researching what people believe, or at least what they say they believe to them at the time they say it to them.  How that translates into votes is another thing. 

The polls have been saying for probably five years that people are dropping out of church, that the "nones" are on the rise.  Are those polls noisy junk to be ignored? 

You keep stretching in these posts to I guess make your points.  The Pew polls show that there are plenty of pro-life Democrats out there.  As far as I'm concerned, they're right.  And as far as I'm concerned those people can have a salutary effect on various elections in their party on a variety of issues including the issue of life.  As they say, your mileage may vary, but in this case, the Pew is sitting with me.

Dave Benke
Anyone who has paid attention to church knows that attendance has been declining. The Pew Research polls have zero effect on how many people come to church. And I do not doubt that there are many pro-life Democrats out there. I just think they are kidding themselves by saying they are pro-life when their votes knowably and demonstrably advance the pro-choice cause.