Author Topic: Once again, in loco parentis  (Read 9877 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #165 on: September 08, 2021, 09:20:57 AM »
Why would they want to come here where a partisan wing of the LCMS dominates and bows to Trumpian lies, COVID disinformation and a crimped view of the faith, along with insider LCMS (that is, who cares?) chit chat. Not to mention the dissing of women and support for an “order of creation” that keeps them in their place.
Two, maybe three or four LCMS voices avoid the worst, but they are almost drowned out by the others, including ex-LCMSers, and ex ELCAers now residing in other communions and bubbling with the fervor of converts.
I keep wondering why I am here. I guess maybe it’s because I came to ALPB in 1965 with youthful hopes and dreams. They have died, but I have not. In the view of the ALPB moderator, people like me are no longer fellow Lutherans, but post-Christian heterodox liberal Protestants. Maybe a level above pond scum.
But who cares?
Charles, look at your posts just in this thread, though they are fairly typical of your posts in other threads. You routinely ask direct, focused questions challenging conservatives to answer for this or that. Who do you think is going to respond? Then you wonder why the thread devolves into you vs. a handful of conservatives. You could have chimed in by saying you don't believe it is true that education happens in loco parentis and explained why. You could have said the schools are doing the right thing. But you don't engage the topic, you interpret the entire discussion in terms of left/right and man your post attacking the right at all costs, then get angry when people on the right attack back, then complain that the forum is no good.

You and pretty much only you are still hot and bothered about all things Trumpian. You import that dichotomy into your interpretation of forum discussion. Covid misinformation? What are you talking about? People on the Covid thread share links and personal stories of all kinds. What is wrong with that? But again, it fits your anti-Trumpian politicization of all topics. Crimped view of the faith? So what. It is a forum. If people with an expansive view of the faith are somehow threatened or driven away by people with a crimped view of the faith, then no forum will ever be more than a mutual admiration society or echo chamber. Insider LCMS talk? How often did you used to complain that so much of the talk centered on CWA09 or various ELCA social statements? Much of the time, if the topic is all critical or negative, you are the one who turns discussions of ELCA-oriented things to the LCMS. Dissing of women? I can see how talk of two guys holding a baby on a hospital bed is utterly disdainful of women, but I doubt that is what you have in mind. In your mind, the LCMS (except those who are apologetically so and with a wink acknowledge that the wrong side won the seminex thing) is just one big diss of women, with false doctrines like the "order of creation" designed to put them in their place, so really you're saying that a forum where the LCMS view is just as welcome and taken just as seriously as the ELCA view can't be a serious forum.

Half the country voted for Trump. The nation is confused and divided over Covid protocols. That has nothing to do with the topic this forum exists to discuss, but does show what occupies your mind and that you are the one taking a crimped view of who should be participating here. The Lutheran church bodies hold contrary views on the ordination of women and matters of sex and marriage. It is a forum for everyone in a vast pool of people with widely divergent takes on things, not limited to those with the correct, Charles-approved views on Trump, Fauci, Covid, FOX and the NYT, etc.

As for the bubbling ex-Lutheran converts, so what? The two previous FL editors went over to Rome. There is a natural affinity for that kind of thing in an evangelical catholic place. What strikes me is that in many threads, the participants who are now Catholic and Orthodox typically agree with the Lutherans you accuse of being the most crimped in their view of the Christian faith. How can that be? It is as though you take as read that liberal Protestantism is the norm and the ELCA is the Lutheran-particular within that norm, and everyone else is some sort of interesting or dangerous outlier. 

Charles Austin

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #166 on: September 08, 2021, 09:35:40 AM »
Pastor Butler:
I don't know why you're so offended. You should be proud of yourself. You managed to get a cushy job as a "humble correspondent" writing LCUSA and LWF puff pieces.
Me:
Yes, away from home three or four times a month. 16 and 18 hour days common. Personal and family adjustments to life in another country, in another language, another culture. What is your problem?

Pastor Butler:
No weekly sermon to prepare. No council meetings to attend. No difficult parishioners to deal with. No sitting at the bedside of a member who is dying. No pushing back a vacation because someone in the congregation died and you need to do the funeral. Just write some happy PR pieces  and a big paycheck.
Me:
I have 15 years as a full-time parish pastor. And I have always - always - assisted in parishes, doing exactly the things you consider “real ministry“. As for “a big paycheck”. What is your problem?

Pastor Butler
You started off as anti-establishment and not only became part of the establishment, you made big bucks off it. Why be ashamed of that? If I pulled off a deal like that, I'd let my freak flag fly and be laughing at the guys who actually work for a living.
Me:
Really? What is your problem?

Pastor Butler:
BTW, don't get upset with me because you didn't do any real ministry once you went to work for the Times and then got the church publication jobs. If you actually considered yourself a pastor, you'd call yourself one. But you don't. You refer to yourself as a "humble correspondent." I'm just taking you at your word. Well, the correspondent part anyway.
Me:
I really feel sorry for you and whatever causes you to post as you do.

P.S. to Peter:
Spend less time worrying about me, and devote a little time caring for Pastor Butler, Pastor Kirchner, and Pastor Fienen, who are in really need of some help.
I am one of two, frequently- posting real liberals here. What is it about what we write that riles you people up so much? Afraid we might be right about something? Afraid our numbers are growing? (They are.) Don’t like us shaking your cages? We not attacking you personally as people, although there may be reasons to do so. There have been a couple of posters here in the past but I simply ignored. They went away.
It’s your forum, Peter. Your special plaything. Consider it your voice in the Big World beyond Munster. Nothing that Brian or I post can change  that.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 11:36:35 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #167 on: September 08, 2021, 09:58:11 AM »
And Peter just widened - by a huge distance - the gap between him and the rest of the Lutheran world and people who should be part of the ALPB family. The millions to which I refer are no one’s “minions,” but faithful, active Lutheran Christians, some of them in gay or lesbian marriages. They create - in their vows, in their beds, through their faith, in their lay and ordained ministries - families. They should be part of the ALPB fellowship and mission. That, unfortunately, is not likely to happen.


Yes, I've heard from some of them. More than one has said that they wouldn't dare post in this forum.
This forum has a large number of lurkers. Anyone is welcome to post. Posting, though, isn't a particularly "daring" thing to do. The worst that can happen is that people (most of whom you don't know anyway) refute what you say, think you are wrong, or even think your views are ridiculous.


There have been those who state that our views are heretical; and that we are heretics.


The other comment I often receive from non-posters is about my patience in dealing with attackers. Those of us with a Thinking preference have an easier time not taking comments personally than those with a Feeling preferences.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 10:01:59 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2021, 10:16:27 AM »

P.S. to Peter:
Spend less time worrying about me, and devote a little time caring for Pastor Butler, Pastor Kirchner, and Pastor Fienen, who are in really need of some help.
I am one of two, frequently- posting real liberals here. What is it about what we write that riles you people up so much? Afraid we might be right about something? Afraid our numbers are growing? (They are.) Don’t like us shaking your cages? We not attacking you personally as people, although there may be reasons to do so. There have been a couple of posters here in the past but I simply ignored. They went away.
It’s your forum, Peter. Your special plaything. Consider it your voice in the Big World beyond Muncie. Nothing that Brian or I post can change  that.
Again, you stoke, engage, challenge Pr. Butler, then wonder why it continues. But I am not here in the pastoral care business. I'm here for the discussion of issues in the abstract-- principles, policies, doctrines, funny stories, analysis, etc. Butler, Kirchner, and Fienen are not members of my congregation. And neither are you. I spend very little time worrying or even thinking about you. I come to this forum in down time between more important things and generally post about as fast as I can type, then go do my job and live my life, which is why I always have so many typos in my posts. Sometimes when things are a little slow I'll go through a thread and check my posts and correct some of the typos I find, which is why you might have noticed a later "last modified" time stamp than the time stamp of the original post.

You deliberately rile up certain posters by posting obnoxious things just to get a reaction, and you never ignore anyone, at least not without a quick, snide comment followed by a declaration that you're ignoring them. Speaking for myself, I am far more likely to roll my eyes or chuckle at you than to be afraid of you. I don't dwell in a cage, but if I did, your attempts to shake it would be a source of comedy, not fear.

It is certainly not my forum, it is the ALPB's forum. As one of the moderators, I try to keep this forum from becoming like every other Lutheran discussion site out there, most of which are echo-chambers in which all the participants share the same assumptions, hold the same views, and talk with each other about those other people who are the problem without any of those other people actually reading it or caring.

I don't live in Muncie, but accuracy has never been a strong suit of NYT correspondents, so I'll excuse the error. My posts, not this forum generally, are the extent of the voice I choose to have beyond my church, community, and family, and I agree that you and Brian can't change that. I read maybe a quarter or a fifth of Brian's posts because he so rarely says anything I find worth reading, and would be glad to do the same with yours except that you so often hijack the discussion. Just look at your first post in this thread, which was an attempt to change the subject. I responded, perfectly politely, merely to get it back on track, and you persisted to wrench, twist, and otherwise throw up distractions to make sure there was not a thoughtful theological discussion of the principle of education being in loco parentis or the particulars of the article linked. You wrench control of the discussion, steer it off the rails, and complain to me about the trainwreck "my" forum has become.

Charles Austin

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #169 on: September 08, 2021, 11:57:26 AM »
Peter:
Again, you stoke, engage, challenge Pr. Butler, then wonder why it continues. But I am not here in the pastoral care business. I'm here for the discussion of issues in the abstract-- principles, policies, doctrines, funny stories, analysis, etc.
me:
You will have to Unpack how I “stoke” Pastor Butler. And I noticed you ignore his very personal attack on me.


Peter:
Butler, Kirchner, and Fienen are not members of my congregation. And neither are you. I spend very little time worrying or even thinking about you. I come to this forum in down time between more important things and generally post about as fast as I can type, then go do my job and live my life, which is why I always have so many typos in my posts.
Me:
Good grief! Did you really think I meant “pastoral care“ in the narrow sense? No, I meant a close look at the attitudes and dynamics of their participation in this forum, something with you enjoy doing.

Peter:
You deliberately rile up certain posters by posting obnoxious things just to get a reaction, and you never ignore anyone, at least not without a quick, snide comment followed by a declaration that you're ignoring them.
Me:
Overstatement. And false analysis of why I post things. But it suits your purpose.

Peter:
Speaking for myself, I am far more likely to roll my eyes or chuckle at you than to be afraid of you. I don't dwell in a cage, but if I did, your attempts to shake it would be a source of comedy, not fear.
Me:
But something, something about what Brian and I post seems to draw the most vicious reactions from participants here, including you.

Peter:
It is certainly not my forum, it is the ALPB's forum. As one of the moderators, I try to keep this forum from becoming like every other Lutheran discussion site out there, most of which are echo-chambers in which all the participants share the same assumptions, hold the same views, and talk with each other about those other people who are the problem without any of those other people actually reading it or caring.
Me:
For several years now and this forum has been, or at least is on the edge of being, an echo chamber for a certain faction in the LCMS. It’s not as mean and nasty or goofy (some real laughs over there)  as that “quest“ place, and not as pretentious as the steadfast brothers.

Peter:
I don't live in Muncie, but accuracy has never been a strong suit of NYT correspondents, so I'll excuse the error.
Me:
My apologies, my error is like one of your typos, just as insignificant, but you needed to get in another shot.

Peter:
My posts, not this forum generally, are the extent of the voice I choose to have beyond my church, community, and family, and I agree that you and Brian can't change that. I read maybe a quarter or a fifth of Brian's posts because he so rarely says anything I find worth reading, and would be glad to do the same with yours except that you so often hijack the discussion. Just look at your first post in this thread, which was an attempt to change the subject.
Me:
Wrong, but…

Peter:
 I responded, perfectly politely, merely to get it back on track, and you persisted to wrench, twist, and otherwise throw up distractions to make sure there was not a thoughtful theological discussion of the principle of education being in loco parentis or the particulars of the article linked. You wrench control of the discussion, steer it off the rails, and complain to me about the trainwreck "my" forum has become.
Me:
I call BS on that, i don’t have that power.  if it were true, and if I did, why can I not truly shape the discussion. It certainly goes off my rails. No, Peter, it is you, your world view,  and your followers. And it is, in my not so humble opinion, not good for the ALPB.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

David Garner

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #170 on: September 08, 2021, 12:25:51 PM »
If you run into a jerk one morning, you just ran into a jerk.

When you run into jerks all day, you're the jerk.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Terry W Culler

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #171 on: September 08, 2021, 12:34:56 PM »
If you run into a jerk one morning, you just ran into a jerk.

When you run into jerks all day, you're the jerk.


A friend of mine had a similar saying--if there's something wrong with everyone you know, you are the only common denominator
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David Garner

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #172 on: September 08, 2021, 12:40:24 PM »
If you run into a jerk one morning, you just ran into a jerk.

When you run into jerks all day, you're the jerk.


A friend of mine had a similar saying--if there's something wrong with everyone you know, you are the only common denominator

:heart emoji:
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #173 on: September 08, 2021, 01:09:58 PM »
Peter:
Again, you stoke, engage, challenge Pr. Butler, then wonder why it continues. But I am not here in the pastoral care business. I'm here for the discussion of issues in the abstract-- principles, policies, doctrines, funny stories, analysis, etc.
me:
You will have to Unpack how I “stoke” Pastor Butler. And I noticed you ignore his very personal attack on me.


Peter:
Butler, Kirchner, and Fienen are not members of my congregation. And neither are you. I spend very little time worrying or even thinking about you. I come to this forum in down time between more important things and generally post about as fast as I can type, then go do my job and live my life, which is why I always have so many typos in my posts.
Me:
Good grief! Did you really think I meant “pastoral care“ in the narrow sense? No, I meant a close look at the attitudes and dynamics of their participation in this forum, something with you enjoy doing.

Peter:
You deliberately rile up certain posters by posting obnoxious things just to get a reaction, and you never ignore anyone, at least not without a quick, snide comment followed by a declaration that you're ignoring them.
Me:
Overstatement. And false analysis of why I post things. But it suits your purpose.

Peter:
Speaking for myself, I am far more likely to roll my eyes or chuckle at you than to be afraid of you. I don't dwell in a cage, but if I did, your attempts to shake it would be a source of comedy, not fear.
Me:
But something, something about what Brian and I post seems to draw the most vicious reactions from participants here, including you.

Peter:
It is certainly not my forum, it is the ALPB's forum. As one of the moderators, I try to keep this forum from becoming like every other Lutheran discussion site out there, most of which are echo-chambers in which all the participants share the same assumptions, hold the same views, and talk with each other about those other people who are the problem without any of those other people actually reading it or caring.
Me:
For several years now and this forum has been, or at least is on the edge of being, an echo chamber for a certain faction in the LCMS. It’s not as mean and nasty or goofy (some real laughs over there)  as that “quest“ place, and not as pretentious as the steadfast brothers.

Peter:
I don't live in Muncie, but accuracy has never been a strong suit of NYT correspondents, so I'll excuse the error.
Me:
My apologies, my error is like one of your typos, just as insignificant, but you needed to get in another shot.

Peter:
My posts, not this forum generally, are the extent of the voice I choose to have beyond my church, community, and family, and I agree that you and Brian can't change that. I read maybe a quarter or a fifth of Brian's posts because he so rarely says anything I find worth reading, and would be glad to do the same with yours except that you so often hijack the discussion. Just look at your first post in this thread, which was an attempt to change the subject.
Me:
Wrong, but…

Peter:
 I responded, perfectly politely, merely to get it back on track, and you persisted to wrench, twist, and otherwise throw up distractions to make sure there was not a thoughtful theological discussion of the principle of education being in loco parentis or the particulars of the article linked. You wrench control of the discussion, steer it off the rails, and complain to me about the trainwreck "my" forum has become.
Me:
I call BS on that, i don’t have that power.  if it were true, and if I did, why can I not truly shape the discussion. It certainly goes off my rails. No, Peter, it is you, your world view,  and your followers. And it is, in my not so humble opinion, not good for the ALPB.
This is a typical response from you, so perhaps as good as any to illustrate several aspects of your posts the derail threads. You very often disagree without correcting or stating the positive side of the equation. When Brian starts off a post with "Nope" he nearly always goes on to explain what he would say "Yep" to. That is, he expresses his disagreement (often disagreement with the plain truth, but so be it) by offering a counterpoint or different point of view, or maybe just an irrelevant quote from a lexicon. You often just say things like "Wrong again, but we digress..." or "Again you miss the point, but no matter..." This forces the other person once again engage, usually with some frustration, and allows you to look like the one patiently dealing with another person's obsession when in fact you're just poking and prodding, and it spirals from there as people get more and more frustrated with you and you get more and more snide and smug in your interactions.

You very often presume to know other people's attitudes, purposes, motives, etc. but object strenuously when they make assumptions about your, as when you say, "False analysis of why I post things, but it suits your purpose," which is vintage Charles-- declare my analysis false without saying what is true, and simultaneously reject my knowledge of your motives while claiming to have knowledge of my motives.

You also very often refuse to acknowledge the insulting tone you use with others while being hypersensitive to everyone else's tone. So, for example, you bother to repost my little line about Muncie not being where I live so that you can accuse me of needing to take a meaningless shot at you for inaccuracy. But you don't acknowledge that my little jab was a counter jab to your initial "Big World Beyond Muncie" put down. You were being a jerk, knowingly, when you typed those words. Yet when I try to deflect it with some ironic humor, you point out how nobly and stoically you absorb the slings and arrows. That is simply your personality in action.

You think this forum is an echo-chamber of a certain wing of the LCMS. It isn't. Not even close. You think we "bow to Trumpian lies" when I'll bet a substantial majority of posters (and total posts) would never have voted for Trump. You accuse us being a Covid misinformation site (which is a pretty serious charge) without offering any evidence whatsoever or apologizing for the flagrant and false insult when called on it. You make everything about politics and complain that the opposing side also has a platform here. 

James S. Rustad

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #174 on: September 08, 2021, 01:10:08 PM »
I'm reminded of the question "What kind of people live here?"

A man entered a village and went to the monastery on the edge of town, where he was welcomed by an old monk, the wise man of the village. The visitor said, “I am deciding whether I should move here or not. I’m wondering what kind of neighborhood this is. Can you tell me about the people here?”

The old monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were highway robbers, cheats and liars.” The monk said, “You know, those are exactly the same kinds of people who live here.” The visitor left the village and never came back.

Half an hour later, another man entered the village. He sought out the wise old man and said, “I’m thinking of moving here. Can you tell me what kind of people live here?” Again the monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate, most loving people. I shall miss them terribly. The old monk said, “Those are exactly the kinds of people who live here, too.”


Dave Benke

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #175 on: September 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM »
I'm reminded of the question "What kind of people live here?"

A man entered a village and went to the monastery on the edge of town, where he was welcomed by an old monk, the wise man of the village. The visitor said, “I am deciding whether I should move here or not. I’m wondering what kind of neighborhood this is. Can you tell me about the people here?”

The old monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were highway robbers, cheats and liars.” The monk said, “You know, those are exactly the same kinds of people who live here.” The visitor left the village and never came back.

Half an hour later, another man entered the village. He sought out the wise old man and said, “I’m thinking of moving here. Can you tell me what kind of people live here?” Again the monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate, most loving people. I shall miss them terribly. The old monk said, “Those are exactly the kinds of people who live here, too.”

Sermon illustration material - will use tonight!  Question - did the second guy end up moving there? 

Dave Benke

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #176 on: September 08, 2021, 03:26:53 PM »
I'm reminded of the question "What kind of people live here?"

A man entered a village and went to the monastery on the edge of town, where he was welcomed by an old monk, the wise man of the village. The visitor said, “I am deciding whether I should move here or not. I’m wondering what kind of neighborhood this is. Can you tell me about the people here?”

The old monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were highway robbers, cheats and liars.” The monk said, “You know, those are exactly the same kinds of people who live here.” The visitor left the village and never came back.

Half an hour later, another man entered the village. He sought out the wise old man and said, “I’m thinking of moving here. Can you tell me what kind of people live here?” Again the monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate, most loving people. I shall miss them terribly. The old monk said, “Those are exactly the kinds of people who live here, too.”

Sermon illustration material - will use tonight!  Question - did the second guy end up moving there? 

Dave Benke

He went back to his first town.  8)

Dave Benke

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #177 on: September 08, 2021, 06:47:31 PM »
I'm reminded of the question "What kind of people live here?"

A man entered a village and went to the monastery on the edge of town, where he was welcomed by an old monk, the wise man of the village. The visitor said, “I am deciding whether I should move here or not. I’m wondering what kind of neighborhood this is. Can you tell me about the people here?”

The old monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were highway robbers, cheats and liars.” The monk said, “You know, those are exactly the same kinds of people who live here.” The visitor left the village and never came back.

Half an hour later, another man entered the village. He sought out the wise old man and said, “I’m thinking of moving here. Can you tell me what kind of people live here?” Again the monk said, “Tell me what kind of people lived where you came from.” The visitor said, “Oh, they were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate, most loving people. I shall miss them terribly. The old monk said, “Those are exactly the kinds of people who live here, too.”

Sermon illustration material - will use tonight!  Question - did the second guy end up moving there? 

Dave Benke

He went back to his first town.  8)

Realized the monk was telling a half-truth.  Then when he got back, realized he too had been telling a half truth.  So he became a Lutheran.  Happy ending.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #178 on: September 21, 2021, 03:02:25 PM »
https://youtu.be/hAAMGatMHss

This is a pretty standard progressive take.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Once again, in loco parentis
« Reply #179 on: October 16, 2021, 09:37:03 AM »
http://www.newamericancivilrightsproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Letter-to-Attorney-General-Garland-10.15.2021.pdf

This is an excellent letter that shows not only how the federal apparatus can be weaponized, but also highlights the stark difference between those who understand teaching authority as deriving from the 4th Commandment and the statist view by which experts, not parents, are rightfully in charge of education.