Author Topic: Heteroromantic  (Read 4344 times)

peter_speckhard

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Heteroromantic
« on: August 22, 2021, 01:36:09 PM »
https://www.thecollegefix.com/james-madison-u-labels-heteroromantic-christian-men-oppressor-group/

This university chart for students employees has categories for gender, sexual orientation, and romantic orientation, with heteroromantic people listed as oppressors and everyone else listed as oppressed. I'm assuming we have broad agreement in this forum that such a category and chart is ridiculous. My question is at what point would people in this forum recommend that someone subjected to this kind of training stop pretending to take it seriously and make it known that they don't accept it? When ought Christians stop going along to get along on these matters?

Charles Austin

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2021, 01:45:19 PM »
We do not have to take every aspect of such training seriously, but…
We do have to try to understand what sexual minorities have experienced for the previous 10 or 12 decades. We listen to them. We think carefully about our own prejudices and what we might’ve said or done. We try, and this is a hard part, to understand that their experiences with people like us may have turned them off because they think, incorrectly, that we all share the same kind of attitudes which brought them a considerable amount of pain and suffering.
And, even if we disagree with their understanding of sexuality, we stand with them in efforts to eliminate discrimination and persecution.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2021, 02:11:04 PM »
We do not have to take every aspect of such training seriously, but…
We do have to try to understand what sexual minorities have experienced for the previous 10 or 12 decades. We listen to them. We think carefully about our own prejudices and what we might’ve said or done. We try, and this is a hard part, to understand that their experiences with people like us may have turned them off because they think, incorrectly, that we all share the same kind of attitudes which brought them a considerable amount of pain and suffering.
And, even if we disagree with their understanding of sexuality, we stand with them in efforts to eliminate discrimination and persecution.
So if you were required to take this training, would you let it be known which parts you refused to take seriously or just go along to get along?

Typically I have done the latter. I’ve had any amount of such training in the foster system, and I just sit there and listen and leave when it is over. But I’m rethinking that approach, because the whole agenda just gets more and more aggressive, assertive, and intrusive and never meets any pushback. So my real question is would this training meet with pushback from you while it was happening? Afterward? Or not at all?

Dan Fienen

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2021, 02:17:35 PM »
You do realize, Charles, that except for your age, you are squarely a part of the oppressor group. You are as much of an oppressor as I am. Do you enjoy being an oppressor?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2021, 02:30:13 PM »
You do realize, Charles, that except for your age, you are squarely a part of the oppressor group. You are as much of an oppressor as I am. Do you enjoy being an oppressor?


While I'm not quite as old as Charles, I think I'm closer than most on this forum, I certainly recognize that I have been part of the (privileged and) oppressor group. For that I repent and continually seek not only to do better, but to go overboard it seeking to help those who are oppressed.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2021, 02:49:16 PM »
By the by, since identifying personal pronouns has become de rigueur my pronouns are er, ihn, seiner.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2021, 02:55:48 PM »
You do realize, Charles, that except for your age, you are squarely a part of the oppressor group. You are as much of an oppressor as I am. Do you enjoy being an oppressor?


While I'm not quite as old as Charles, I think I'm closer than most on this forum, I certainly recognize that I have been part of the (privileged and) oppressor group. For that I repent and continually seek not only to do better, but to go overboard it seeking to help those who are oppressed.
How exactly does one repent of being able-bodied, male, cisgendered, heterosexual, white, Western European descent, Christian, etc.? You have not actually turned from any of those things except Christianity in any meaningful sense. Repent in your sense of the word doesn't refer to anything.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2021, 03:21:05 PM »
By the by, since identifying personal pronouns has become de rigueur my pronouns are er, ihn, seiner.
If you get the electronic version of FL you should soon have my article in the September issue about my refusal to offer my pronouns. But I'm come to a compromise. Since people really only need to know my pronouns when they're talking to me, I'll be glad to provide non-gendered pronouns that work for that purpose. Pete Speckhard (you, your)

Richard Johnson

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2021, 03:50:39 PM »
By the by, since identifying personal pronouns has become de rigueur my pronouns are er, ihn, seiner.

Mine are I, me, mine.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

jebutler

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2021, 04:40:22 PM »
You do realize, Charles, that except for your age, you are squarely a part of the oppressor group. You are as much of an oppressor as I am. Do you enjoy being an oppressor?


While I'm not quite as old as Charles, I think I'm closer than most on this forum, I certainly recognize that I have been part of the (privileged and) oppressor group. For that I repent and continually seek not only to do better, but to go overboard it seeking to help those who are oppressed.

You repent for being Christian?

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Charles Austin

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2021, 05:22:21 PM »
Peter:
So if you were required to take this training, would you let it be known which parts you refused to take seriously or just go along to get along?
Me:
I don’t know. I do know that I probably do not have the exact same objections to this “training“ as you might.

Peter:
Typically I have done the latter. I’ve had any amount of such training in the foster system, and I just sit there and listen and leave when it is over. But I’m rethinking that approach, because the whole agenda just gets more and more aggressive, assertive, and intrusive and never meets any pushback. So my real question is would this training meet with pushback from you while it was happening? Afterward? Or not at all?
Me:
See above. Dunno.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

Charles Austin

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2021, 06:00:53 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes:
You do realize, Charles, that except for your age, you are squarely a part of the oppressor group. You are as much of an oppressor as I am. Do you enjoy being an oppressor?
I comment:
Yes, I am part of an “oppressor group,” even though I may not have been as directly involved in the oppression as some. As a man entering the professional world in the early 1960s, I have had access, “boosts,” and perks that were not available to women. Furthermore, the people running (“ruling”?) my professional worlds of church and journalism were largely males of an earlier generation with restrictive views on what women could or should do.
   In journalism, I was lucky enough to have some top, tough, and extremely helpful women editors. A woman was editor of the suburban weekly where I began. She could swear like a sailor and barked orders like a drill sergeant. (And this indicated that in order to "make it" those days, a woman had to act like a man. Another sign of the oppression.)
   The late, great Lillian Ross of Religion News Service was an amazing combination of Jewish mother, 1930’s “Front Page” style editor, and your favorite English teacher. I learned a lot from her.
   At The New York Times for a while my editor was the remarkable Anna Quindlen, who later became one of the finest writers of our time. (She was actually too nice a person to be a good editor, so her time at the City Desk was brief.) A coalition of women reporters at The Times actually sued for better treatment and won.
   During my four-month “fill-in” gig with the Lutheran World Federation, my boss was Karin Achtelstetter, a German pastor who cared about professional communications and was smart, savvy and knew how to create and inspire a team.
   Meanwhile, I have heard from women journalists what they have experienced in the last 40 years – discrimination, sexism, condescension, and a stone wall to hit when trying to move up the ladder. This has changed a lot in the last 15 years.
   Ditto for the church, at least for the ELCA part of it. In the church I grew up in there was absolutely no female leadership above the congregational level and darn little there, save for the women's circles. Today we have numerous women bishops, a female presiding bishop, and ordained women on the staff of many synods.
   Like with systemic racism, Pastor Fienen, males of our generation have to recognize and admit that we have had advantages. We did not create them, and we might even have resented them, but we did benefit.

Peter writes:
How exactly does one repent of being able-bodied, male, cisgendered, heterosexual, white, Western European descent, Christian, etc.?
I comment:
See above. Admit the reality of the last 100 or more years. Argue for the balance which can say that not everything male, white, heterosexual, Western European or Christian is terrible.
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2021, 06:45:28 PM »
....not everything male, white, heterosexual, Western European or Christian is terrible.

I'll go with that.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dave Benke

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2021, 06:50:09 PM »
By the by, since identifying personal pronouns has become de rigueur my pronouns are er, ihn, seiner.

All the missives received from those in various levels of NYC government include the preferred personal pronoun for whoever wrote the letter/email.  It's been helpful in many cases to me, because the first names (and last names) are remarkably global, and not so easily parsed by yours truly.  Also, if you are interacting with, say, Sonia Ramirez at the Department of X, there may be 35 SRamirez@xxx.  So they're numbered - SRamirez35@xxx.  The most notable phenomenon to me, as a fan of golf, is the domination of the South Korean women golfers, so that the woman who was in the running for a recent major was YLee6.  There are at least 6 women named, Lee - Young Sil.  In the LCMS there were/maybe are a ton of Schmidts, many of whom I knew, but we didn't know enough to number them.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Heteroromantic
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2021, 07:14:36 PM »
Having an advantage or an opportunity not everybody has is not a sin. To be able-bodied, for example, is a first article gift. To repent of it is silly. If you oppress the disabled, you repent. But if you got a job because you aren't disabled that a disabled person couldn't get, that doesn't have anything to do with anything needing repentance. Most of the criteria are simply an unavoidable function of being in the majority in a given context, which is what determines what "normal" means. Thus, being "heteroromantic" in no way oppresses people who aren't heteroromantic. It is simply stupid to repent, apologize, or otherwise work for change based on the unfair privileges that accrue to the heteroromantic.

At any of these universities, the "oppression" is all in the other direction. Ask yourself: if you were seeking admission to this university, submitting an article for publication, applying for a grant, running for office, seeking an internship, or really doing just about anything with limited positions available, which attributes on your application would give you a better chance of getting a positive outcome, the "oppressed" column attributes or the "oppressor" column attributes? In every single case, your odds go way up if you can claim membership in the oppressed column.