Author Topic: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use  (Read 3930 times)

Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2021, 03:51:45 PM »
I suspect that a lot of time, analysis, and actual on the ground activity will happen as everyone tries to parse out "what does this mean?".  Alan Jacobs has an interesting viewpoint: https://blog.ayjay.org/asymmetrical-charity/

I am struck by the ruling that, if you want to continue in the Latin Mass, your priest must have the Bishop' permission and you must follow Vatican rulings about it - logical process under the law - but you cannot do it inside your parish church, even if that form has been in use for your entire life.

Interesting "ban", and perhaps the first step in a continuing action?
A quick "heads-up": I took the liberty of bolding the Latin Mass because
     1. there is an order of the Latin Mass which is the ordinary and commanded Mass instituted after the Second Vatican Council. The vernacular Mass in English, French, Spanish, etc, is a TRANSLATION OF THAT LATIN MASS.
     2. what is being severely limited is the use, as an alternative, of the Latin Mass that Vatican II replaced. As used by those Catholics whom Pope Francis sees as divisive, it includes (1) its own calendar of feasts and liturgical seasons, (2) its own Lectionary (with almost complete omission of the Old Testament and different Gospels than all the other Catholic congregations), and (3) the silencing of most of the liturgical prayers, to the point where worshippers not in the chancel cannot hear them--and besides, they are mostly not prayers used in the ordinary Mass in any language.
     Additional division comes from the way that the exponents often push the "old" Latin Mass as the really Catholic Mass, which can tend to induce in their worshippers a sense of both difference and superiority vis-à-vis other Catholics.
     The new Motu Proprio is intended to keep that divisiveness under control, while continuing to permit the use of the earlier Latin Rite as genuinely extraordinary, not on the regular menu.
     HTH


Thank you for the clarification. Is it not the Tridentine Mass that is being discussed? From what I read, this was in the Roman Missals published from 1570-1962, stemming from the Council of Trent ("Tridentum" in Latin).
You are correct. It is also known as the Missal of Pius V. When he issued it, he banned all other forms of the Mass in use at that time, with a couple of ancient exceptions (e.g. Mozarabic rite, Ambrosian rite).

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Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2021, 03:54:29 PM »
The response of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops is very tight-lipped. Here it is in its entirety:
Quote
Archbishop José H. Gomez of Los Angeles, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, issued the following statement in response:

“Today Pope Francis published Traditionis custodes, an Apostolic Letter issued motu proprio on the use of Latin liturgical texts approved prior to the reform of 1970. I welcome the Holy Father’s desire to foster unity among Catholics who celebrate the Roman Rite.

“As these new norms are implemented, I encourage my brother bishops to work with care, patience, justice, and charity as together we foster a Eucharistic renewal in our nation.”
https://www.usccb.org/news/2021/us-bishops-conference-president-responds-holy-fathers-apostolic-letter-motu-proprio-use

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Michael
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2021, 04:31:05 PM »
Benedict XVI was wooing the Lefebvre schismatics and related parties, and that is the “unity” he was seeking.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2021, 06:28:21 PM »
Benedict XVI was wooing the Lefebvre schismatics and related parties, and that is the “unity” he was seeking.
Why is “unity” in scare quotes? What “unity” is the current pope seeking be deliberately antagonizing some of the most active members of his communion?

Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2021, 06:45:53 PM »
Why is “unity” in scare quotes? What “unity” is the current pope seeking be deliberately antagonizing some of the most active members of his communion?
Pope Francis is "deliberately antagonizing some of the most active members of his communion," you assert. Whom do you mean, why do you count them some of the most active members of the RCC, , and how do you know that is what he is trying to do? It doesn't come out in the Motu Proprio itself or its cover letter.

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/letters/2021/documents/20210716-lettera-vescovi-liturgia.html
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/events/event.dir.html/content/vaticanevents/en/2021/7/16/motuproprio-traditionis-custodes.html

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Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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Jeff-MN

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM »
Wondering if Pope Francis health is such that he is trying to push through his reforms before his time is up?  What will be next?  Women's Ordination?

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2021, 07:58:21 PM »
Wondering if Pope Francis health is such that he is trying to push through his reforms before his time is up?  What will be next?  Women's Ordination?
I rather doubt that Pope Francis has down loaded the progressive wish list and is letting that guide his deliberations and agenda setting. I trust that he is guided more by what he believes is God's will for the RCC and what will be good for the church than dedicating his papcy to serving the progressive agenda. Sometimes the two will coincide.
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Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2021, 08:14:36 PM »
Wondering if Pope Francis health is such that he is trying to push through his reforms before his time is up?  What will be next?  Women's Ordination?
I rather doubt that Pope Francis has down loaded the progressive wish list and is letting that guide his deliberations and agenda setting. I trust that he is guided more by what he believes is God's will for the RCC and what will be good for the church than dedicating his papacy to serving the progressive agenda. Sometimes the two will coincide.
I agree, Pr. Fienen. As his cover letter says, this Motu Proprio began with a survey of all the bishops of the world about how the easing of controls on the Tridentine liturgy was working out. They apparently reported a number of problems that, far from producing greater unity in the church as Pope Benedict XVI had hoped, were having the contrary effect. Pope Francis listens more to the bishops than used to be customary for popes.

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Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2021, 09:50:45 PM »
The enthusiasts of the Latin Mass, especially among young people who don’t even remember Vatican II,  is well known. Such enthusiasts are the dyed in the wool types, too, and many converts to Catholicism. If it weren’t a popular and growing phenomenon there would be no real point in censuring it.

The best overall take on Vatican II came from JPII. Benedict seemed to want to continue that overall approach of interpreting the council as being in line with the past, and Francis seems to want to alter both his predecessors’ approach in favor of an interpretation of Vatican II that emphasizes the newness of it and the break with the past. As with many things, this edict is more symbolic than anything, and a matter of signaling sympathies.

JEdwards

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2021, 10:40:09 PM »
Many traditionalist Catholic bloggers and groups note that the development of the “Novus Ordo” after Vatican II included consultation with Protestant theologians, with the deliberate intention of highlighting commonalities and de-emphasizing areas of disagreement (e.g., the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice).  I’m not informed enough to assess the accuracy of this claim, but if true, it could either be a bug or a feature, depending on your point of view.

Peace,
Jon

Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2021, 11:26:17 PM »
Many traditionalist Catholic bloggers and groups note that the development of the “Novus Ordo” after Vatican II included consultation with Protestant theologians, with the deliberate intention of highlighting commonalities and de-emphasizing areas of disagreement (e.g., the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice).  I’m not informed enough to assess the accuracy of this claim, but if true, it could either be a bug or a feature, depending on your point of view.

Peace,
Jon
"Traditionalist Catholic bloggers and groups," many of whom would refrain from communion with any but a select few RC bishops (much less the Pope--unless he were using the Missal of Pius V) may be the very people whom Pr. Speckhard thinks of as "the most active members of his [the Pope's and his predecessors'] communion."

Yes, at Vatican II the RC bishops made deliberate efforts to reduce traits in our language and worship that were unnecessarily offensive to Orthodox but also Protestant Christians. Those who reject the Council are really upset with those efforts. They often manifest their displeasure, including by maintaining their distance with the official RCC. That could be experienced as division rather than active leadership.

Peace,
Michael
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2021, 11:34:48 PM »
The “hard core” practitioners of any denomination have more in common with each other despite their irreconcilable differences than they have with the non-hardcore practitioners of their own denomination.

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2021, 12:01:49 AM »
Peter:
The “hard core” practitioners of any denomination have more in common with each other despite their irreconcilable differences than they have with the non-hardcore practitioners of their own denomination.

Me:
You mean they are all - of whatever denomination or communion - cranky ideologues who feel good about feeling oppressed as they share their “noble” goal of saving the image of their religious body most comfortable to themselves and their grandparents, resisting all change and mocking the properly called and chosen current leadership?
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2021, 12:23:59 AM »
Peter:
The “hard core” practitioners of any denomination have more in common with each other despite their irreconcilable differences than they have with the non-hardcore practitioners of their own denomination.

Me:
You mean they are all - of whatever denomination or communion - cranky ideologues who feel good about feeling oppressed as they share their “noble” goal of saving the image of their religious body most comfortable to themselves and their grandparents, resisting all change and mocking the properly called and chosen current leadership?
No. Not at all. I mean that people who actually believe their own confession, whatever that confession may be, have more in common with each other than they do with people like you of any confession.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2021, 08:45:52 AM »
I'm no expert in all things Catholic, Catholic subgroupings, or the various iterations of the Catholic Mass. But from what I've read on this thread, the issues surrounding Pope Francis' pronouncement are complicated with aspects far too involved to be adequately explored much less decided here. Maybe it settles out as progressive revisionist liberals vs. faithful conservative traditionalists,  maybe not. From what I know and have read, I don't know. Conservative traditionalists don't always want to save good things. Just because what progressives want is new and different doesn’t alway make them right either. Generalizing from this situation to the overall traditionalist/progressive kerfuffle is fraught with pitfalls.


This dustup in the RCC has its interest but thankfully it's not ours to solve or judge.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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