Author Topic: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use  (Read 3197 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2021, 08:59:57 AM »
Nobody is “solving” or “judging”.
We are discussing, I thought, some news about Fellow Christians, some of which, in certain ways, parallel things that have gone on among us.
Fr. Slusser brings his special expertise which is very helpful.
I may be the only one here who sat close to the Levebre schism and related events, and watched Benedict XVI try - and mess up - early attempts at reconciliation.
So we’re just talking.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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JEdwards

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2021, 11:33:01 AM »
The “hard core” practitioners of any denomination have more in common with each other despite their irreconcilable differences than they have with the non-hardcore practitioners of their own denomination.
There is some truth to that, but commitment to one’s own beliefs need not require harshness or denigrating any search for common ground with others.

To give a personal example, I have come to know the Catholic pastor of a parish near the hospital where I work. Several close friends are members of his parish, and I sometimes run into him when we are both making hospital rounds. On occasion, when I have had busy Sunday rounds at the hospital, my only opportunity to worship has been at his parish. Knowing me and my beliefs, he has let me know that I am welcome to commune there on such occasions, although not as a general rule, consistent with his interpretation of canon law that permits giving communion to non-Catholics in cases of “grave necessity” when they do not have access to their own minister.

In my opinion, his approach is arguably more thoughtful and more faithful to the whole of Catholic teaching than either a blanket welcome or a reflexive exclusion (both of which I have also experienced).

Peace,
Jon
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 11:34:45 AM by JEdwards »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2021, 12:49:46 PM »
I'm no expert in all things Catholic, Catholic subgroupings, or the various iterations of the Catholic Mass. But from what I've read on this thread, the issues surrounding Pope Francis' pronouncement are complicated with aspects far too involved to be adequately explored much less decided here. Maybe it settles out as progressive revisionist liberals vs. faithful conservative traditionalists,  maybe not. From what I know and have read, I don't know. Conservative traditionalists don't always want to save good things. Just because what progressives want is new and different doesn’t alway make them right either. Generalizing from this situation to the overall traditionalist/progressive kerfuffle is fraught with pitfalls.


This dustup in the RCC has its interest but thankfully it's not ours to solve or judge.


However, I think that our church bodies face the same issue: How do we unite our members? Can a common liturgy bring unity among our members? What should be "common" about our liturgies? (Both the numbers of members and the nationalities of Roman Catholic members make our seems small.) I believe that for Roman Catholics and Anglicans, the language of their liturgies are sort of set in stone; but the music can vary greatly. Marty Haugen said that every word in the masses he composed for Roman Catholic worship was scrutinized by official "powers that be." (Not so much when he composed liturgies for Lutherans.) However, our latest communion liturgies in Evangelical Lutheran Worship pretty much follows that pattern. Same words, but 10 different musical settings.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mark Brown

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2021, 07:54:13 PM »
Take a look at the picture and the statistics provided by Dreher here.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/traditional-latin-mass-catholicism-trads-not-the-problem/

When was the last time anyone on here had a standing room only service? A similar question would be are people that agree completely with formal Roman doctrine and are willing to live it out created by that environment (we say liturgy forms), or do the people who believe thus migrate there?

Why would any leader of an organization look at images like that and say "we gotta squelch that?"


Rob Morris

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2021, 10:44:57 AM »
This is fascinating to me. Anecdotally, the most devout Catholics I know are the biggest supporters of the Traditional Latin Mass. They are not hard to spot - driving vans with Catholic stickers on the back and opening the sliding doors to emit 7 or so Catholic kids. It's not hard to imagine that in 50 years, these will be the Catholics, while those favoring liturgical innovations while have come and gone.

Interestingly, I could see a very strong argument being made for using a single, churchly language, which the faithful in all places are instructed to understand. Then the liturgy would be the same in Togo and in Toledo. I think you would have to allow for vernacular hymns, Scripture readings, and sermons, but I could see a bilingual (Latin-and-local) service making a ton of sense if unity is the goal. Funny enough, though, the pope never asked me. Odd.

I note that, like in the LCMS, the greatest energy seems to be found on the edges, while the greatest number seems to dwell between those edges. Whether to ride the energy of the edge or solidify the preference of the majority is a fascinating question.

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2021, 12:27:30 PM »
The phrase “most devout” is troublesome.
That is hard to measure, and the significance of the measurement would be critical. Mass attendance? A personal articulation of faith? Service in the community? Aactivities within the church? Expressed loyalty to various aspects of doctrine or piety? Number of children?
By some measurements, Dorothy Day or Daniel Berrigan might not be considered “devout” Catholics. Or the late Hans Kung.
And you cannot call the current mass in use for more than 50 years now an “innovation.“
It is very hard to imagine that those who want to turn the clock back to 1959 will be the future of the Roman catholic church.
Unless you want to consider them the “true church,” and the only devout, faithful remnant of such.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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David Garner

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2021, 12:43:57 PM »
And you cannot call the current mass in use for more than 50 years now an “innovation.“

Yes, you can.

Whether you should or not is not something upon which I have an opinion, but that something happened in the past 50 years of the 2000 year history of the Church is hardly evidence of Holy Tradition.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2021, 12:56:29 PM »
If you consider the traditional teaching and practice of the ELCA that which was established in 2009, the Mass established 50 years ago is ancient.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2021, 01:48:23 PM »
Oh for heaven sake’s! The mass, along with our worship, has changed 1000 times over the history of the church.
Let’s not get hung up on what constitutes “innovation.“
And I wondered, my wondering turning out to be correct, how quickly the ELCA decisions of 2009 would be thrown into this thread.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2021, 02:39:53 PM »
And you cannot call the current mass in use for more than 50 years now an “innovation.“

Yes, you can.

Whether you should or not is not something upon which I have an opinion, but that something happened in the past 50 years of the 2000 year history of the Church is hardly evidence of Holy Tradition.
Don't forget--the Missal of Paul VI is in Latin and contains the full Roman Canon used in the Extraordinary Rite (=traditional Latin Mass) as well as three other Eucharistic Prayers of differing length, which (unlike the Roman Canon) include an Epiclesis, invocation of the Holy Spirit over the elements, prompted by the fact that the Orthodox use an Epiclesis. This Missal of Paul VI is sometimes referred to as the "Novus Ordo." It has the old Roman Canon in it! In Latin!

The "innovation" was that all the Eucharistic Prayers could be translated into the vernacular, and were meant to be, even the Roman Canon itself; and that rubrics were simplified and several prayers outside the Canon itself reduced in length and number.

Bigger changes took place elsewhere in the Mass--the 3-year Sunday, 2-year daily Lectionary, which includes large helpings of the Old Testament; the modification of the calendar to give a little more emphasis to Sunday and reduce the number of saints' days, many of which became optional celebrations.

The rejection of the Novus Ordo by some Catholics is not because they want the Latin, not because they want the Roman Canon, because both of those are incorporated in the Missal of Paul VI, the "Novus Ordo". In the process of rejecting the Novus Ordo, they reject the use at Mass of the Old Testament, they insist on using different Gospel readings than other Catholics. Some even reject Pope Pius XII's reform of the Holy Week and Easter liturgy, from the early 1950s.

Many traditional Catholics use the permission for the Extraordinary Rite as it was intended to be used, as a special occasion, while worshipping with their fellow Catholics in the reformed rites and the vernacular on other occasions. When on principle they will not join in the Eucharist with the 99% of Catholics who use the reformed Missal, that is an act of division, not just a style preference.

Peace,
Michael



« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 02:42:03 PM by Michael Slusser »
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Rob Morris

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2021, 03:15:11 PM »
The phrase “most devout” is troublesome.
That is hard to measure, and the significance of the measurement would be critical. Mass attendance? A personal articulation of faith? Service in the community? Aactivities within the church? Expressed loyalty to various aspects of doctrine or piety? Number of children?
By some measurements, Dorothy Day or Daniel Berrigan might not be considered “devout” Catholics. Or the late Hans Kung.
And you cannot call the current mass in use for more than 50 years now an “innovation.“
It is very hard to imagine that those who want to turn the clock back to 1959 will be the future of the Roman catholic church.
Unless you want to consider them the “true church,” and the only devout, faithful remnant of such.

For me (again... anecdotally), "most devout" has not been a complicated or troublesome reality for me to observe. For those families/individuals I would typify in that way, using your questions:
Mass attendance? YES, a very high family priority.
A personal articulation of faith? YES, from a very early age.
Service in the community? YES, by all ages and frequently.
Activities within the church? YES, by all ages and frequently
Expressed loyalty to various aspects of doctrine or piety? YES.
Number of children? MANY.

So, not exactly troublesome to spot whom is "most devout". Any way you slice it, in my observation in very-Catholic New England, all of these rubrics have been strongest in those most "right-leaning" for lack of a better term. And those most right-leaning have been most in favor of Traditional Latin Mass. Your mileage may vary. (Just make sure, to ensure apples-to-apples, that it's data from 2021, not 1965.)

As to "liturgical innovations", I wasn't specifically meaning Vatican II (though Father Slusser's insights are helpful - thank you for those!). I meant more like the "Dancing Priest" video embedded in the Rod Dreher article.

You comment: "It is very hard to imagine that those who want to turn the clock back to 1959 will be the future of the Roman catholic church." For you, perhaps, not for me. Though I wouldn't have picked 1959 as the benchmark, but no matter... A generation from now, there will be almost no cultural underpinnings left to drive church membership/attendance/affiliation. I genuinely believe that, should the Lord tarry, by the time my sons are grandparents, the only churches left may well be those who embrace the counter-cultural aspects of church life. Whether this will prove to be a blessing to the church or otherwise remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 03:31:55 PM by Rob Morris »

Dave Benke

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2021, 08:35:34 AM »
This is fascinating to me. Anecdotally, the most devout Catholics I know are the biggest supporters of the Traditional Latin Mass. They are not hard to spot - driving vans with Catholic stickers on the back and opening the sliding doors to emit 7 or so Catholic kids. It's not hard to imagine that in 50 years, these will be the Catholics, while those favoring liturgical innovations while have come and gone.

Interestingly, I could see a very strong argument being made for using a single, churchly language, which the faithful in all places are instructed to understand. Then the liturgy would be the same in Togo and in Toledo. I think you would have to allow for vernacular hymns, Scripture readings, and sermons, but I could see a bilingual (Latin-and-local) service making a ton of sense if unity is the goal. Funny enough, though, the pope never asked me. Odd.

I note that, like in the LCMS, the greatest energy seems to be found on the edges, while the greatest number seems to dwell between those edges. Whether to ride the energy of the edge or solidify the preference of the majority is a fascinating question.

In the Missouri Synod, I think the determinant is the Ordo.  In Eucharistic worship, which is maybe up to 2/3 of the regular Sunday offerings in congregational life, if and as the Ordo becomes the norm, there's a chance for the "greatest number" to go on into the future.  At present the greatest number of people/parishioners is contained in a far smaller number of large congregations that have greater worship variety.  So maybe 15% of the congregations contain well over half of the worshipers on a Sunday.  Because there's more liturgical/worship variety in those congregations, if attention were paid to developing the Eucharistic worship of those congregations inside the Ordo from beginning to end pretty significant strides would be made in the formation of God's people around Word and Table.   That's my opinion, of course.

What happens in life is that the "greatest number" is counted as congregations/parishes.  Since the greatest number is mid/small/tiny, the continuity in worship form, which is from this time forth going to be taught pretty much exclusively from our Lutheran Service Book, will come through greater pastoral focus on that exclusivity.  The problem is that a significant number of those congregations will not be sustainable in the near to mid-term.   I say "from this time forth" due to the news from the St. Louis Seminary.  The two primary architects of LSB, staff to the LCMS on that project, are now the Deans of Chapel at the two seminaries.  The former Chapel Dean at St. Louis is out of the picture.  And I say "not sustainable" because those congregations are going to close or be multi to multi-multi point and that trend is easy to chart.

So the double-down on LSB exclusivity will produce greater uniformity (again, just my opinion).  At the same time, by not connecting to the congregations where the great number of people are in sensible ways - which to me is holding to the Ordo and allowing for the multi-diverse ways the Ordo can take place - the equal and opposite reaction is that the gulf between the two "edges," as you say, in the LCMS, will grow wider. 

The exclusion of folks from national involvement and leadership from the larger and more diverse worship practicing congregations has been a Missouri hallmark for the past decade.  Including that group - and that would involve church-political changes (again, in my opinion) - could provide not only greater stability for the denomination, but encourage a more strongly Gospel-formed denomination, because for me at least commitment to the Ordo brings with it a laity formed around Word and Table toward mission to the world.


Dave Benke


Michael Slusser

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2021, 10:32:28 AM »
Imagine if the Ordo in the LCMS were still in German, and those who would attend only the German service were considered the most devout Lutherans.  :-\

Peace,
Michael
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John_Hannah

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Re: Pope Francis Restricts Latin Mass Use
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2021, 10:42:54 AM »
Imagine if the Ordo in the LCMS were still in German, and those who would attend only the German service were considered the most devout Lutherans.  :-\

Peace,
Michael

Would they be "more devout" if they didn't understand German? :D 8) ;D

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS