Author Topic: Guns, Government. and Gospel  (Read 806 times)

Norman Teigen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1667
  • I intend to persuade no one.
    • View Profile
Guns, Government. and Gospel
« on: July 17, 2021, 05:13:11 AM »
The June 2021 Forum Letter arrived in my Hopkins MN mailbox yesterday.  I was drawn immediately to a compelling argument written by ELCA pastor Peter Jonas.  Pastor Jonas had written an open letter to oppose the enactment of a 'Second Amendment Sanctuary' in his county.  His argument is well-written and persuasive. The issue was to be resolved on June 14th.  I am happy to report that this resolution was defeated according to a news account in the Trempealeau County Times.  Whew!

Pastor Jones deserves some kind of reward for his logic and reasoning.  The editorial response to Pastor Jonas was tepid and unenlightened.   For further reading on 'Sanctuary' go to www.elca.org/sanctuary church.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 05:14:50 AM by Norman Teigen »
Norman Teigen

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17551
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 09:24:37 AM »
The June 2021 Forum Letter arrived in my Hopkins MN mailbox yesterday.  I was drawn immediately to a compelling argument written by ELCA pastor Peter Jonas.  Pastor Jonas had written an open letter to oppose the enactment of a 'Second Amendment Sanctuary' in his county.  His argument is well-written and persuasive. The issue was to be resolved on June 14th.  I am happy to report that this resolution was defeated according to a news account in the Trempealeau County Times.  Whew!

Pastor Jones deserves some kind of reward for his logic and reasoning.  The editorial response to Pastor Jonas was tepid and unenlightened.   For further reading on 'Sanctuary' go to www.elca.org/sanctuary church.
Weird. The July FL is already out with a complaint that my response didn’t address the issue. But as I made clear, I wasn’t writing to engage the issue of guns. I was engaging a larger issue of the fault lines of religious, political, and cultural divisions between us. Pastor Jonas himself said before publication of the June issue that he really liked my article. When I asked him to submit his petition to FL he was hesitant to offer it as a point/counterpoint type of thing, so he submitted the sermon he wrote on the topic as well, and I assured him my accompanying article was not going to be some kind of rebuttal but simply something that used his topic as a launching point to explore a separate thesis. At any rate, your response is entirely predictable and in fact predicted by my article. So thanks for proving me correct. And those who subscribe could probably talk them into including the June issue so as to be caught up. But be warned; you might, like Norman, sometimes get the issues late or out of order due to the post office, not us.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13604
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 09:29:50 AM »
I’m not sure I got the June issue. But I got the July.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 09:33:23 AM »
So wait, the "editorial response" that Mr. Teigen said was "tepid and unenlightened" was yours, Pr. Speckhard?  If that is the case, I will suggest Mr. Teigen's critique of it is tepid and cowardly.  Tepid because it is lukewarm, something to be spit from the mouth rather than savored, lacking in substance or flavor.  Cowardly because it was directed at you but lacked the courage to name you. 

Be that as it may, I have learned long since that Mr. Teigen's threads and observations here basically amount to "hey guys, I'm very much a partisan Democrat and you should be too, if you aren't you're a big stupid head."  So I was secretly hoping no one would reply, though I understand why you did, and I broke my own aspiration to say what should be obvious -- Mr. Teigen's critique of you is not principled, but based solely on which team he perceives you are on versus which team he is on.  It may as well be a critique of Ford Motor Company by one of those guys who drives a Chevy with Calvin peeing on a blue oval on the window sticker, or a critique of Notre Dame's football prowess by a USC fan, or a critique of the Giants by a Cowboys fan.......well, you all get the point.  It lacks any theological point, and in fact it does not attempt to make one.  Inasmuch as it attempts to make a political point, it is along the Ford vs. Chevy lines I outline above, and no more.  I hope to go back to ignoring it after this comment, but we shall see.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17551
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 09:46:29 AM »
I’m not sure I got the June issue. But I got the July.
My mom got the July issue the same day I got the June issue. I know this isn’t a great commercial for getting subscriptions but we’re aware it is an ongoing problem and will keep looking for solutions.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13604
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 09:53:29 AM »
Now is still a good time to subscribe to all ALPB publications.
Mr. Garner, you need to develop a thicker skin and a kinder attitude. Mr. Teigen’s responses were nowhere near as nasty as some of the things that have been leveled against Pastor Stoffreden and myself these recent years. Matter of fact, they weren’t nasty at all, they were his honest observations.
I may be the only one here, save for father Slusser, who has actually met Norman. He is even more gentle than this humble correspondent, although he holds strong opinions, those opinions shaped by his life, his family and his involvement with his church. And he is an excellent historian, active in the Minnesota State historical society. We should value his voice here.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 10:14:42 AM »
Now is still a good time to subscribe to all ALPB publications.
Mr. Garner, you need to develop a thicker skin and a kinder attitude. Mr. Teigen’s responses were nowhere near as nasty as some of the things that have been leveled against Pastor Stoffreden and myself these recent years. Matter of fact, they weren’t nasty at all, they were his honest observations.
I may be the only one here, save for father Slusser, who has actually met Norman. He is even more gentle than this humble correspondent, although he holds strong opinions, those opinions shaped by his life, his family and his involvement with his church. And he is an excellent historian, active in the Minnesota State historical society. We should value his voice here.

Were his voice used to promote anything other than leftist politics, I might value it more.  Were his judgments ever along the lines of Christian theology, I might value them more.  As it is, it's easy for you to value them.  You agree with him.  But even with your agreement, I defy you to find a single shred of Christian theology in the post that began this thread.  I'll even break it down for you:

Mr. Teigen received the June forum letter yesterday (he lives in Hopkins, MN, which may be relevant to that point)
Mr. Teigen thinks an argument made by ELCA Pastor Peter Jonas
This argument was that Pastor Jonas opposes a sanctuary city for the Second Amendment
Mr. Teigen thinks the still-unstated argument is well-written and persuasive
Mr. Teigen is happy the Second Amendment Sanctuary resolution did not pass
Pastor Jonas' un-stated reasoning is worthy of an award, though of what sort Mr. Teigen appears to be unaware
Pastor Speckhard's response to Pastor Jonas' article is "tepid and unenlightened," though again Mr. Teigen appears to either not know or not wish to say why, and leaves Pastor Speckhard himself unnamed in this criticism
We are invited to go to a link at the ELCA website that gives a 404 error to read more on "Sanctuary"

You think I need a thicker skin and a kinder attitude.  That is probably so, though you need a mirror in the worst possible way.  But I would love to see you point out the substance of this post beyond "I don't like guns, I endorse an article written to oppose their protection, and I think people who disagree are not particularly bright."

And if that's all there is, I'll say again, mods, behavior, not content, is the issue.  You said don't discuss politics.  This post is 100% politics and political sniping.

Unless we want to include the part about Forum Letters being lost in the mail going to suburban Minneapolis.  That seems on point.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 10:17:14 AM by David Garner »
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12590
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 10:24:15 AM »
The June 2021 Forum Letter arrived in my Hopkins MN mailbox yesterday.  I was drawn immediately to a compelling argument written by ELCA pastor Peter Jonas.  Pastor Jonas had written an open letter to oppose the enactment of a 'Second Amendment Sanctuary' in his county.  His argument is well-written and persuasive. The issue was to be resolved on June 14th.  I am happy to report that this resolution was defeated according to a news account in the Trempealeau County Times.  Whew!

Pastor Jones deserves some kind of reward for his logic and reasoning.  The editorial response to Pastor Jonas was tepid and unenlightened.   For further reading on 'Sanctuary' go to www.elca.org/sanctuary church.
I see the guns and government in this post. Where is it tied to the Gospel?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13604
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 10:28:49 AM »
You think, Mr. Garner, that guns need “protection”?
Whassup with that.
And Pastor Fienen raises an interesting point, although I’m not sure how I feel about it.
Are “Guns and government” gospel issues?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2021, 10:34:02 AM »
You think, Mr. Garner, that guns need “protection”?
Whassup with that.
And Pastor Fienen raises an interesting point, although I’m not sure how I feel about it.
Are “Guns and government” gospel issues?

How would anyone know whether they are "gospel issues?"  Best I can tell no one has attempted to tie them together.

Your deflection away from my post amounts to an admission though.  You know what I meant, but you would rather throw a rock down a rabbit trail than answer the simple question I posed. That's an indication you are aware that there is no non-political substance, nor really any substance relevant to the forum's purpose, beyond the fact that Hopkins, MN is not the best place to send a newsletter if you want it to arrive on time.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17551
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2021, 10:39:41 AM »
You think, Mr. Garner, that guns need “protection”?
Whassup with that.
And Pastor Fienen raises an interesting point, although I’m not sure how I feel about it.
Are “Guns and government” gospel issues?
The rule is not they everything be a Gospel issue. If guns and government aren’t at all fit for this forum, then take it up with Pr. Jonas, who wrote up a petition and got signatures from many ELCA pastors and bishops to sign, and also wrote a sermon about the topic and agreed to have FL publish it.

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12590
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2021, 10:48:09 AM »
You think, Mr. Garner, that guns need “protection”?
Whassup with that.
And Pastor Fienen raises an interesting point, although I’m not sure how I feel about it.
Are “Guns and government” gospel issues?
The rule is not they everything be a Gospel issue. If guns and government aren’t at all fit for this forum, then take it up with Pr. Jonas, who wrote up a petition and got signatures from many ELCA pastors and bishops to sign, and also wrote a sermon about the topic and agreed to have FL publish it.
"You think, Mr. Garner, that guns need "protection"?" Well, a great many keep their guns in safes to protect them.


I do not dispute the propriety of the FL publishing Pr. Jonas sermon. My point was that Mr. Teigen titled this thread "Guns, Government. and Gospel" but in his initial post did not comment on how Guns and Government related to the Gospel in the title. Seems to me that talking about government gun control, while no doubt a hot topic for many, is not actually a topic for this forum. Generally, I think it useful when introducing an article for discussion, some mention should be made of what the article said that is a topic for our discussion here.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43174
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2021, 11:57:37 AM »
Now is still a good time to subscribe to all ALPB publications.
Mr. Garner, you need to develop a thicker skin and a kinder attitude. Mr. Teigen’s responses were nowhere near as nasty as some of the things that have been leveled against Pastor Stoffreden and myself these recent years. Matter of fact, they weren’t nasty at all, they were his honest observations.
I may be the only one here, save for father Slusser, who has actually met Norman. He is even more gentle than this humble correspondent, although he holds strong opinions, those opinions shaped by his life, his family and his involvement with his church. And he is an excellent historian, active in the Minnesota State historical society. We should value his voice here.

Were his voice used to promote anything other than leftist politics, I might value it more.  Were his judgments ever along the lines of Christian theology, I might value them more.  As it is, it's easy for you to value them.  You agree with him.  But even with your agreement, I defy you to find a single shred of Christian theology in the post that began this thread.  I'll even break it down for you:

Mr. Teigen received the June forum letter yesterday (he lives in Hopkins, MN, which may be relevant to that point)
Mr. Teigen thinks an argument made by ELCA Pastor Peter Jonas
This argument was that Pastor Jonas opposes a sanctuary city for the Second Amendment
Mr. Teigen thinks the still-unstated argument is well-written and persuasive
Mr. Teigen is happy the Second Amendment Sanctuary resolution did not pass
Pastor Jonas' un-stated reasoning is worthy of an award, though of what sort Mr. Teigen appears to be unaware
Pastor Speckhard's response to Pastor Jonas' article is "tepid and unenlightened," though again Mr. Teigen appears to either not know or not wish to say why, and leaves Pastor Speckhard himself unnamed in this criticism
We are invited to go to a link at the ELCA website that gives a 404 error to read more on "Sanctuary"

You think I need a thicker skin and a kinder attitude.  That is probably so, though you need a mirror in the worst possible way.  But I would love to see you point out the substance of this post beyond "I don't like guns, I endorse an article written to oppose their protection, and I think people who disagree are not particularly bright."

And if that's all there is, I'll say again, mods, behavior, not content, is the issue.  You said don't discuss politics.  This post is 100% politics and political sniping.

Unless we want to include the part about Forum Letters being lost in the mail going to suburban Minneapolis.  That seems on point.


The correct link, (I think,) is: https://www.elca.org/sanctuarychurch?_ga=2.133069326.1278498169.1626537074-1129196707.1602816733


Mr. Teigen attended Bethany Lutheran High School (which closed in 1969) and Bethany Lutheran College. These are schools of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod - a church body not known for liberalism.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 03:28:06 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2021, 12:00:00 PM »
Mr. Tiegen attended Bethany Lutheran High School (which closed in 1969) and Bethany Lutheran College. These are schools of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod - a church body not known for liberalism.

So?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

George Rahn

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
    • View Profile
Re: Guns, Government. and Gospel
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2021, 12:44:52 PM »
The June 2021 Forum Letter arrived in my Hopkins MN mailbox yesterday.  I was drawn immediately to a compelling argument written by ELCA pastor Peter Jonas.  Pastor Jonas had written an open letter to oppose the enactment of a 'Second Amendment Sanctuary' in his county.  His argument is well-written and persuasive. The issue was to be resolved on June 14th.  I am happy to report that this resolution was defeated according to a news account in the Trempealeau County Times.  Whew!

Pastor Jones deserves some kind of reward for his logic and reasoning.  The editorial response to Pastor Jonas was tepid and unenlightened.   For further reading on 'Sanctuary' go to www.elca.org/sanctuary church.
I see the guns and government in this post. Where is it tied to the Gospel?

 Very true.  These are issues under the category of life lived under the law.  There is a righteousness here but it only leads one to equating out of virtue.  That is not even close to what the Christian Gospel is.  But it does lead one to seeing the great divide and contrast between righteousness under the law and righteousness in Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 12:46:31 PM by George Rahn »