Author Topic: Two Realms and the Military  (Read 1215 times)

Dave Benke

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Two Realms and the Military
« on: July 15, 2021, 05:49:11 PM »
Several of  the honorees at the Atlantic District Witness in the Public Square event through the years were military and civilian political leaders.  I think especially of Gen. Jack Vessey, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Edwin Meese III, former Attorney General of the United States.  The event invariably began with the Pledge of Allegiance, often led by Atlantic District Board member and Chair of the Economics Department at the USMA, then Colonel (now General) Mike Meese. 

Conversing with these leaders, there were several invariables - faith, family, humility, respect for God and country, and a deep love for the military chaplaincy.  Indeed, when we determined to keep the work at the USMA going after the ELCA dropped out of the inter-Lutheran relationship, the Lutheran staff at West Point were absolutely clear about the mission of our Lutheran effort, that it was distinct from the other chaplaincy efforts there, that it should be held and cherished at the Old Cadet Chapel, and that search for chaplains would seek to bring the best pastoral care to students, staff and others at West Point from our distinct theological position. 

That being said by way of introduction, I am interested in discussion of the place of Lutheran theology, especially as delivered by our chaplains, to the officers they minister to in their various locations around the world.  Gen. Meese chaired the Anti-Terrorism task force of the combined forces for some time, so he and I worked through Romans 13 and how the appropriate exercise of government, God's Realm of Power/Left, is indeed involved in terror.  Those governing authorities are to be a terror to those who do bad (Romans 13:3). 

So - where in the chain of command and the exercise of pastoral ministry by chaplains does dialog about the appropriate role of the governing authorities take place?  We have a number of chaplains/ex-chaplains here, and others who serve with other governing entities locally.  "Quis custodiet ipsos custodies?", for instance, is a valid question.  And what role does the chaplain play in that conversation?

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2021, 06:00:07 PM »
I'm glad you started a new thread on this after it was brought up briefly in the discontinued one.

As far as chain-of-command, I understand my position as chaplain under FEMA guidelines in what is called a "liaison officer." For example see this chart: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/ICS-basic-organization-chart-ICS-100-level-From-FEMA-Incident-Command-System-Training_fig1_277303837. They do not serve in any command position, but do serve in an advisory position.  Although sometimes listed with the fire ground officers, I am the only one that does not normally assume command of an incident on the fire ground (although in volunteer service there are exceptions).  I may hold other offices as needed, including "safety officer," or officer in charge of staging and accountability, but in the grand scheme of things, my position as chaplain is more advisory. 

I assume this arrangement is much like the military. 

To that end the chaplain can be the needed voice to those in command when issues of ethics arise. He has access to all levels which gives him the opportunity to add a voice to discussions that may not always consider all the finer points of ethical dilemmas or personnel needs.   
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 06:01:42 PM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2021, 06:16:40 PM »
http://www.northerncrossingsmercy.org

"Shepherd of the Lake Lutheran Church in Garrison, MN [west side of Mille Lacs Lake] lost a “chief vacuum cleaner operator, stewardship committee member, Bible study teacher, usher . . .” this morning when John Vessey went to be with Jesus.  He served the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod on the Board for Mission Services, the predecessor to the Board for International Mission and headed up a campaign to endow our churches colleges which was called “For the Sake of the Church.”  He described himself as a chief vacuum cleaner operator in an interview in the LCMS Reporter back in 2012 when he turned 90.

This kind of self effacing modesty marked his interaction with folks like me.  Someone introduced him to me awhile back at the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod International Center.  We talked for awhile and he went on his way and I remembered being taken by his modesty and range of theological interest.  The name was lost on me until I remembered the title – General.  Then my brain started to process facts that I had forgotten.  He was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff  under Reagan.  He is accounted with the greatest peacetime strengthening of the Armed Forces in history.

This from the Reporter article by Jeni Miller.

“General Vessey fought in North Africa and Italy in World War II, as well as in both the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

In addition to his extensive active service, he also served as first commander-in-chief of the Republic of Korea-United States Combined Forces Command and as the appointed Presidential Emissary to Hanoi to negotiate with the Vietnamese government regarding the fates of missing Americans.

His numerous honors include the Distinguished Service Cross, and the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Defense Distinguished Service Medals, in addition to many other military decorations. He was the recipient of the Purple Heart and other medals from 19 friendly and allied nations. In 1992, President Bush awarded him the nation’s highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom.  General Vessey is also the only person to have ever achieved every rank the Army had to offer.”

He liked to quote article 16 of the Augsburg Confession and gleaned from it that Christ is present with us wherever we are.  From the battlefield to vacuuming  at his church, John Vessey held onto Christ who redeemed Him with His blood and purchased Him, and now has taken Him to life everlasting."

I think he's buried at the very modest Camp Ripley cemetery, just north of Little Falls, birthplace of Charles Lindbergh, 30 minutes south of our lake getaway/future retirement home, the Lord willing.

I'm sure Dave grew up there too.   ;D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 06:44:36 PM by Donald_Kirchner »
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Dave Benke

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2021, 06:40:59 PM »
First, to John Vessey - he had a remarkable memory of and innate respect for Missouri Synod Lutheran military chaplains.  He knew many - many - by name and went all the way back to his original service in WWII with his recollections of their prayers and interactions with him and the troops under his various commands. 

To me that's where some of the dialog about an appropriate understanding of the Two Realms comes - and of course we need look no further than the First Amendment and its aegis as explained by James Madison as having come from Luther's genius to anchor our practice in our own history.  How did that inform Gen. Vessey and does it inform others in their understanding of ethical/moral/chain of command decisions?  What do these leaders have to weigh and balance behind closed doors in terms of decisions?   Whose counsel do they seek?  I'm confident Gen. Vessey took it to the Lord in prayer, first of all.

Don E, it sounds as though the area of ethical/moral dilemna and outcome does indeed come into the frame of duties for a chaplain.  A question - is there space for teaching on the Two Realms?  Is there space in your kind of chaplaincy for discussion/bible study?

I can say that whenever in various public ministry events and efforts I have had a chance to speak with officials or ecumenical/interfaith leaders on the topic, the response has been off the charts positive.  It's not really articulated that much or that well, it turns out - so there is a great opportunity.

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2021, 09:29:03 AM »
Don E, it sounds as though the area of ethical/moral dilemna and outcome does indeed come into the frame of duties for a chaplain.  A question - is there space for teaching on the Two Realms?  Is there space in your kind of chaplaincy for discussion/bible study?

I can say that whenever in various public ministry events and efforts I have had a chance to speak with officials or ecumenical/interfaith leaders on the topic, the response has been off the charts positive.  It's not really articulated that much or that well, it turns out - so there is a great opportunity.

I believe that they would be open.  However, in my more limited sphere, opportunities for Bible study, as such, would default back to the local parish (since I am very locally based). It's undoubtedly different for military chaplains. In emergency services chaplaincy work, the emphasis is usually on the emergency end of things.  We are most interested in helping people through trauma.  Many less structured encounters (vs. formal debriefings following a critical incident) occur informally in the context of casual conversation in trucks and on scene. 

I was pleasantly surprised when both law enforcement and fire service in the city made a concerted effort in the last few years to reach out to local clergy, encouraging them into chaplaincy.  This was a very new move for my community, a move I had initiated in my own small way in 2003 by introducing it to a rural volunteer department.  Having the presence of clergy within the ranks of emergency service personnel is already a huge 'two kingdoms' effort.  We work in both, and work to respect both.  But we must remember while we serve as pastors of specific congregations, we are not, technically speaking, pastors to the police or fire fighters and paramedics.  We are chaplains.  There is a difference.  Chaplaincy is at the same time more limiting and more flexible.  More limiting in terms of overall pastoral care and teaching.  More flexible in that it allows ministry into areas where it normally would be kept at a distance behind yellow barricade tape.  My mobility as a pastor increased immensely when I became a chaplain, both for non-members and members alike.  Now I could be with people at times of severe crisis in real time, not afterward.  It is very much a ministry of presence. 

Not sure if that answered your question, created more, or established my own tangent.  :)
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2021, 10:20:52 AM »
I'm glad you started a new thread on this after it was brought up briefly in the discontinued one.

As far as chain-of-command, I understand my position as chaplain under FEMA guidelines in what is called a "liaison officer." For example see this chart: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/ICS-basic-organization-chart-ICS-100-level-From-FEMA-Incident-Command-System-Training_fig1_277303837. They do not serve in any command position, but do serve in an advisory position.  Although sometimes listed with the fire ground officers, I am the only one that does not normally assume command of an incident on the fire ground (although in volunteer service there are exceptions).  I may hold other offices as needed, including "safety officer," or officer in charge of staging and accountability, but in the grand scheme of things, my position as chaplain is more advisory. 

I assume this arrangement is much like the military. 

To that end the chaplain can be the needed voice to those in command when issues of ethics arise. He has access to all levels which gives him the opportunity to add a voice to discussions that may not always consider all the finer points of ethical dilemmas or personnel needs.


Don, the place and function of U.S. military chaplains is quite similar to what you describe. In a sense we are deeply and solidly embedded in the structure, with full uniform and paraphernalia.  Yet we stand alone. It is universally understood that we may approach the commanders without any permission when we have found a serious problem, especially an ethical one or a humanitarian one. We are not allowed (Uniform Code of Military Justice, the congressional law) in court to reveal what we know from confidential encounters (i.e., confessions) nor are we allowed to serve on military juries. We enjoy perfect religious freedom to minister according to the tenants of our respective religious body. I discovered a very interesting experience Arthur Carl Piepkorn had with his commander, General George S. Patton, which will be available in a forthcoming issue of Lutheran Forum. (Subscribe NOW!)



http://www.northerncrossingsmercy.org

"Shepherd of the Lake Lutheran Church in Garrison, MN [west side of Mille Lacs Lake] lost a “chief vacuum cleaner operator, stewardship committee member, Bible study teacher, usher . . .” this morning when John Vessey went to be with Jesus.  He served the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod on the Board for Mission Services, the predecessor to the Board for International Mission and headed up a campaign to endow our churches colleges which was called “For the Sake of the Church.”  He described himself as a chief vacuum cleaner operator in an interview in the LCMS Reporter back in 2012 when he turned 90.

This kind of self effacing modesty marked his interaction with folks like me.  Someone introduced him to me awhile back at the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod International Center.  We talked for awhile and he went on his way and I remembered being taken by his modesty and range of theological interest.  The name was lost on me until I remembered the title – General.  Then my brain started to process facts that I had forgotten.  He was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff  under Reagan.  He is accounted with the greatest peacetime strengthening of the Armed Forces in history.

This from the Reporter article by Jeni Miller.

“General Vessey fought in North Africa and Italy in World War II, as well as in both the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

In addition to his extensive active service, he also served as first commander-in-chief of the Republic of Korea-United States Combined Forces Command and as the appointed Presidential Emissary to Hanoi to negotiate with the Vietnamese government regarding the fates of missing Americans.

His numerous honors include the Distinguished Service Cross, and the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Defense Distinguished Service Medals, in addition to many other military decorations. He was the recipient of the Purple Heart and other medals from 19 friendly and allied nations. In 1992, President Bush awarded him the nation’s highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom.  General Vessey is also the only person to have ever achieved every rank the Army had to offer.”

He liked to quote article 16 of the Augsburg Confession and gleaned from it that Christ is present with us wherever we are.  From the battlefield to vacuuming  at his church, John Vessey held onto Christ who redeemed Him with His blood and purchased Him, and now has taken Him to life everlasting."

I think he's buried at the very modest Camp Ripley cemetery, just north of Little Falls, birthplace of Charles Lindbergh, 30 minutes south of our lake getaway/future retirement home, the Lord willing.

I'm sure Dave grew up there too.   ;D

Don, I met General Vessey a couple of times, once at table  at a "Public Square Luncheon" with Ed Meese and his son General Mike Meese (now retired and a member of the ALPB board). He is exactly as described, most humble and gracious. He was greatly respected by all chaplains and especially beloved by all (not only LCMS) chaplains who knew him. His favorite was Conrad (Connie) Walker of the ALC, whom he selected to conduct his funeral but who precceded him in death. It is not surprising that he chose to be buried at Camp Ripley, an almost obscure National Guard installation, where he entered the Army in WW II. (He was underage, I think.) He is the only Chairman to have been commissioned on the battlefield. At Anzio he was a junior Non-commissioned Officer. He assumed command in the midst of a fierce battle when his superior(s) became casualties. As a result of his success, he was given a "battlefield commission" as a 2nd Lt.

Equally humble and unassuming was another Chairman, General John Shalikashvili, the only chairman to have been drafted and commissioned in Officer Candidate School. I was his Division Chaplain in the 9th Infantry Division. I thought of him as almost "half-Lutheran." His father had been a Georgian Army officer who escaped after the Russian Revolution. He mother was German from Nuremberg and they settled there during WW II. In school his father had to chose between religion classes by Catholics or by Lutherans. He was Orthodox and he chose to alternate annually between Lutheran and Roman Catholic classes. Once when we were discussing public speaking (he was very good) he remarked to me that as a Lutheran I had a double burden in that I also had to sing.  :) He didn't know how few American Lutheran pastors actually sang the liturgy. General "Shali" was remarkably aware of the two kingdoms.

Both of these generals were most concerned with moral and ethical effects of their decisions. That is universal in the U.S. military. In the Army there was in my time, a chaplain at every Army school a chaplain, especially trained to teach ethics to officers from their basic orientation to the War College, preparing to be generals. We can be grateful for our nations military leaders.

Peace, JOHN

Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2021, 10:49:30 AM »
Both of these generals were most concerned with moral and ethical effects of their decisions. That is universal in the U.S. military. In the Army there was in my time, a chaplain at every Army school a chaplain, especially trained to teach ethics to officers from their basic orientation to the War College, preparing to be generals. We can be grateful for our nations military leaders.


Several questions -
a) do you believe the War College training in ethics at the War College still exists?  Who else would or might be assigned to teaching on morality/ethics in military situations? 
b) did/should that training include the ethics of obeying/disobeying/figuring out what to do with unethical requests from up the chain of command?  Are there parameters for those kinds of decisions whether it be whiste blowing or disobeying a direct order to attack, etc.? 
c) does the military have a "blue line" similar to the police, which discourages those courses of action?  (viz., the movie A Few Good Men)
d) is there room in the training of regular military for dialog on moral/ethical issues as part of say basic training?  Should there be?
e) more to Don, if the assumption by those in governmental authority is that the major duty of a chaplain is the ministry of presence, is it possible from those times of presence to stretch those folks to see the importance of the ethical and moral dimension, and how would you go about it?

As a side note, in all of the ethical/moral dimensions of other industries/corporate holdings - say financial concerns, etc., I have long looked for board members who were religious leaders who were tasked with bringing that conversation.  Haven't found any yet, so maybe others here would know.   What I'm saying is that there's really a "stay in your lane," or "stay out of our lane," or "your lane is not going to touch our lane" dimension to all of this, with the possible exception of the military.  And of course that's troubling.  Not that the religious leaders would all agree, or have always taken the high ground (and maybe that's it's own issue), but the ethical/moral dimension of conversation, and specifically our Two Realms way of thinking it through, seems a mostly missing dimension.

Therefore, who gets to make the case is pundits and politicians.  Is that a good thing?    Possibly not.

Dave Benke

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2021, 10:58:09 AM »
I'm glad you started a new thread on this after it was brought up briefly in the discontinued one.

As far as chain-of-command, I understand my position as chaplain under FEMA guidelines in what is called a "liaison officer." For example see this chart: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/ICS-basic-organization-chart-ICS-100-level-From-FEMA-Incident-Command-System-Training_fig1_277303837. They do not serve in any command position, but do serve in an advisory position.  Although sometimes listed with the fire ground officers, I am the only one that does not normally assume command of an incident on the fire ground (although in volunteer service there are exceptions).  I may hold other offices as needed, including "safety officer," or officer in charge of staging and accountability, but in the grand scheme of things, my position as chaplain is more advisory. 

I assume this arrangement is much like the military. 

To that end the chaplain can be the needed voice to those in command when issues of ethics arise. He has access to all levels which gives him the opportunity to add a voice to discussions that may not always consider all the finer points of ethical dilemmas or personnel needs.


Don, the place and function of U.S. military chaplains is quite similar to what you describe. In a sense we are deeply and solidly embedded in the structure, with full uniform and paraphernalia.  Yet we stand alone. It is universally understood that we may approach the commanders without any permission when we have found a serious problem, especially an ethical one or a humanitarian one. We are not allowed (Uniform Code of Military Justice, the congressional law) in court to reveal what we know from confidential encounters (i.e., confessions) nor are we allowed to serve on military juries. We enjoy perfect religious freedom to minister according to the tenants of our respective religious body. I discovered a very interesting experience Arthur Carl Piepkorn had with his commander, General George S. Patton, which will be available in a forthcoming issue of Lutheran Forum. (Subscribe NOW!)

I am fortunate that I have always had a good relationship with the chiefs under which I have served.  Not all were regular church-goers, but they respected me. The chief under who I began my chaplaincy was not churched, as far as I know, but supported the position fully. Likewise my chief in the city, who initiated the chaplaincy program himself and approached me directly for consultation and eventually interviewed me for a co-chaplaincy position. My current chief in the township position is a fellow LCMS Lutheran.  He has seen me as a confidant, a consultant, and a fellow officer in the fullest sense.  Sometimes my position has drifted from the strict boundaries of chaplaincy, but this is partly the nature of my own unique position as a chaplain and a trained fire fighter.  I walk both sides of the street, and have the experience and expertise to be involved on a slightly deeply level. This is also due to the nature of a smaller operation. All personnel tend to serve as 'generalists' at incident scenes, assuming responsibilities as needed, floating between them as determined.  If I was involved in a mass casualty event with other government agencies, FEMA structure would predominate, and I would be more of a liaison officer and function more strictly within the bounds of my chaplaincy position.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2021, 11:37:22 AM »
e) more to Don, if the assumption by those in governmental authority is that the major duty of a chaplain is the ministry of presence, is it possible from those times of presence to stretch those folks to see the importance of the ethical and moral dimension, and how would you go about it?

That's an interesting question.  As I noted in a previous post, I currently enjoy a good working relationship with both of my chiefs, and an especially strong one with the department where I am most active. So, I believe that they would hear me out if I "stretched" them into those kinds of discussions.  I try to keep the door open by regular contact so that they may be inclined to seek me out as needed.

Searching my mind for a possible example in my limited sphere, I suppose one of those would be with personnel and discipline.  Although we allow a lot of latitude within our ranks in terms of personal behavior outside of work (although one's legal status is always of concern - e.g. arrests), we do have standards that must be held to within the organization that are not governed strictly by legal statutes.  Honesty to one's superiors.  Respect for fellow personnel.  These two have come up in our own ranks.  As a chaplain I would support enforcing such ethical behavior, both for the good of the organization, and for the overall safety of its members.

Unlike the military, where decisions often must be made with regard to the taking of life and destruction of property as part of necessary operations, or of law enforcement that face similar situations and dilemmas, fire service is more about protection of property and rescue of those in danger.  Although I haven't faced it, I suppose one ethical dilemma would be to what extent one goes in saving someone and their property, especially when there is risk to those doing the rescuing.  We walk a fine line here.  We are told that we are not going as heroes just waiting to rush in and risk our lives, but our goal, at the end of the day, is to go home to our families healthy and whole.  That doesn't mean we would not risk our lives.  That's built into the work itself.  But there's a balance.  Sometimes help must be 'pulled back' if the risk to the responders is too great (e.g. structural instability, inaccessible and dangerous entry, overall danger to those on the outside perimeter, etc.).

Thankfully I have not had to address such matters as ethical dilemmas.  Yet.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2021, 12:13:25 PM »
Both of these generals were most concerned with moral and ethical effects of their decisions. That is universal in the U.S. military. In the Army there was in my time, a chaplain at every Army school a chaplain, especially trained to teach ethics to officers from their basic orientation to the War College, preparing to be generals. We can be grateful for our nations military leaders.

Several questions -

a) do you believe the War College training in ethics at the War College still exists?  Who else would or might be assigned to teaching on morality/ethics in military situations?

Yes, as far as I know. A recent occupant of the chair was the Lutheran, Jonathan Shaw at the Army War College.
Actually anyone who is adequately trained could teach ethics; it need not be a chaplain.


b) did/should that training include the ethics of obeying/disobeying/figuring out what to do with unethical requests from up the chain of command?  Are there parameters for those kinds of decisions whether it be whistle blowing or disobeying a direct order to attack, etc.? 

Definitely. That is taught even in Basic Combat Training to all enlisted as well.

c) does the military have a "blue line" similar to the police, which discourages those courses of action?  (viz., the movie A Few Good Men)

Probably does. But it would be a thin, weak "line" that won't hold for serious matters.

d) is there room in the training of regular military for dialog on moral/ethical issues as part of say basic training?  Should there be?

Yes. Yes.

e) more to Don, if the assumption by those in governmental authority is that the major duty of a chaplain is the ministry of presence, is it possible from those times of presence to stretch those folks to see the importance of the ethical and moral dimension, and how would you go about it?

Go for it, Don.

Peace, JOHN

As a side note, in all of the ethical/moral dimensions of other industries/corporate holdings - say financial concerns, etc., I have long looked for board members who were religious leaders who were tasked with bringing that conversation.  Haven't found any yet, so maybe others here would know.   What I'm saying is that there's really a "stay in your lane," or "stay out of our lane," or "your lane is not going to touch our lane" dimension to all of this, with the possible exception of the military.  And of course that's troubling.  Not that the religious leaders would all agree, or have always taken the high ground (and maybe that's it's own issue), but the ethical/moral dimension of conversation, and specifically our Two Realms way of thinking it through, seems a mostly missing dimension.

Therefore, who gets to make the case is pundits and politicians.  Is that a good thing?    Possibly not.

Dave Benke
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2021, 02:32:45 PM »
Would I be right in guessing that study of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is an important feature of basic training in all the services, and that much of the ethical discussion takes place around that study?

Are there other sources around which ethical discussion forms?

Peace,
Michael
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 03:05:16 PM by Michael Slusser »
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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2021, 03:51:04 PM »
Would I be right in guessing that study of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is an important feature of basic training in all the services, and that much of the ethical discussion takes place around that study?

Are there other sources around which ethical discussion forms?

Peace,
Michael

Good question. I think the following:

o   The Geneva Conventions, of course.

o   The United States Constitution (as cited by General Milley in his published recent interviews). Here, especially the Constitution's limited role of the military.

o   Not a specific document but the commonly understood Judeo-Christian ethic of Western civilization.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2021, 03:55:15 PM »
Would I be right in guessing that study of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is an important feature of basic training in all the services, and that much of the ethical discussion takes place around that study?

Are there other sources around which ethical discussion forms?

Peace,
Michael

Good question. I think the following:

o   The Geneva Conventions, of course.

o   The United States Constitution (as cited by General Milley in his published recent interviews). Here, especially the Constitution's limited role of the military.

o   Not a specific document but the commonly understood Judeo-Christian ethic of Western civilization.

Peace, JOHN
Thanks!
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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2021, 04:06:34 PM »
Pastor Hannah:
The United States Constitution (as cited by General Milley in his published recent interviews). Here, especially the Constitution's limited role of the military.

Me:
Careful.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Re: Two Realms and the Military
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2021, 05:45:26 PM »
Would I be right in guessing that study of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is an important feature of basic training in all the services, and that much of the ethical discussion takes place around that study?

Are there other sources around which ethical discussion forms?

Peace,
Michael

Good question. I think the following:

o   The Geneva Conventions, of course.

o   The United States Constitution (as cited by General Milley in his published recent interviews). Here, especially the Constitution's limited role of the military.

o   Not a specific document but the commonly understood Judeo-Christian ethic of Western civilization.

Peace, JOHN

I dare not forget and another source: Classic "Just War Theory" (from Augustine and Aquinas).
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS