Author Topic: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)  (Read 10889 times)

David Garner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2021, 05:24:42 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

mariemeyer

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2021, 05:41:30 PM »
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you wrote: "Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command."  I think you have just answered your own question.

Mr. Bohler, the above is a cop-out.  I think you have taken a coward's way out of a situation you created.

There is yet to be any post on this Forum that suggests I am an oppressed women.  A rather humorous comment was made by an LCMS District President when we were both serving on the LCMS Convention Nominations Committee.   His comment, "Marie, you are a very feminine women.  You also have the ability to stand firm like a MACK truck."

I took the reference to a MACK truck as a complement.   

Marie Otten Meyer


Dave Benke

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2021, 05:53:04 PM »
Ha - some of you may never have actually met Marie.  "Poor me" is not her mode of existence on our planet.

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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2021, 06:05:32 PM »
Mrs. Meyer,

I did not say that you were oppressed. This is what I wrote (and, by the way, it was not serious): "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool."  It was a joke, to illustrate the foolishness of saying that only members of a certain group can talk about that particular group.  I do not, and never did, think you were oppressed -- by the LCMS or anyone else.  Despite your constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

Charles Austin

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2021, 06:12:12 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 06:15:42 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2021, 06:30:18 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.

That's nice.  I hear complaints.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2021, 06:34:00 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2021, 06:37:18 PM »
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2021, 06:39:26 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

David Garner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2021, 06:40:27 PM »
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.

No. 

You use language like the Mad Hatter.  This is 90% of the reason people get exasperated trying to talk to you.  You use words, but you don't mean them the way the words are typically used.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2021, 06:46:07 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.

That's nice.  I hear complaints.

Yup. "Grieved" is such a positive term.  🙄

On a truly positive note, it sure was a nice respite those  two days in the last week or so!
Don Kirchner

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2021, 06:51:00 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.


I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.


I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2021, 06:53:01 PM »
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.

No. 

You use language like the Mad Hatter.  This is 90% of the reason people get exasperated trying to talk to you.  You use words, but you don't mean them the way the words are typically used.


I beg to differ. When I use words as the dictionary defines them, I am using the words the way they are typically used. Its those who don't get it who are out of step with proper usage.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2021, 07:00:33 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.


I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.


I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.

As the recipient, I conclude that Brian's post treats his wife in a condescending manner.
Don Kirchner

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David Garner

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #119 on: July 07, 2021, 07:28:08 PM »
I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.

So mansplaining is in the eye of the beholder?  Interesting.  See response below.

Quote
I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.

Yeah.  Except your woke buddies don't work that way.  See, there's a spa in California that is required by California law to admit transgender women into the women-only areas of the spa.  There was an op-ed about it in the LA Times about it.  Here's the link:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-07-06/editorial-transgender-spa-customers-have-the-same-rights-as-everyone-else

From the op-ed:

"There is no doubt that Wi Spa did the right thing in defending the right of a transgender customer to be nude in the women’s area, even though the sight of male-appearing genitalia discomfited at least one female customer, who complained at the front desk. As a public-serving business, Wi Spa had to follow California law forbidding discrimination against transgender people. What’s extraordinary isn’t that the spa’s employees followed the law but that this led to violence outside as opponents and supporters of the law clashed over the weekend."

First, let's pass to laugh at the phrase "male-appearing genitalia." 

Okay, (whew).  The "no doubt" part is also comical, because it seems to me the people complaining doubt whether Wi Spa did the right thing. Anyway, let's move on.

"At the same time, that doesn’t make everyone who feels uncomfortable in such scenarios a bigot. There are women who have been through personal experiences such as sexual assault who might find such a situation intimidating. It could go against the convictions and traditions of observant Muslims and Jews, who have a conservative or orthodox interpretation of gender norms and might themselves feel marginalized for their traditionalist beliefs. Right now, entrepreneurs may not create businesses solely for those who don’t want to be exposed to transgenderism; those businesses, too, would have to follow anti-discrimination laws."

Well, that's nice.  The women who don't like being subjected to penises in what is supposed to be a gender-exclusive area aren't bigots.  At least not all of them.  Some of them probably are though, because the author leaves it open with that whole "that doesn't make everyone ... a bigot" thing.  But anyway, let's accept the author's charity.  Here's where the rubber meets the road.

"As complicated as the opposing beliefs might be, it is clear where the rights in this matter land. Everyone — transgender customers, members of every faith and women who are upset by the sight of penises — has the right to use the spa and other public accommodations. It just happens that in this case, the public accommodation also includes nudity.

But no one has an absolute right to feel comfortable all the time. People have a right to use the spa, but that doesn’t include with it a guarantee that they all will feel at ease with everything they see. They might prefer a spa where a certain amount of body covering is required."


So, here, a higher level of oppressed person is involved.  And let's be clear, I assume your wife is a white woman, and therefore barely better than you, a white man, and she's a Christian to boot, so she is in fact an oppressor, not an oppressed person.  So when another person (like a white transgender male who wants to fling his bits and pieces in your wife's direction in the bathroom or locker room) gets to play the "I'm more oppressed than you" trump card, then your wife will simply have to look at the swinging "male-appearing genitalia" and get over it.  Is she chaste?  Is she modest?  Would she rather not see that?  The author of this article doesn't care.  Neither do most of your leftist fellow travelers.  What you fail to realize is you are climbing in bed with a praying mantis.  And she will eat you.  You think you're friends -- she just acted very friendly in courting your affection after all. She doesn't love you though.  Because your wife is married to you, a white Christian man, and she is a white Christian woman, and therefore barely deserving of the label "oppressed" except, perhaps, by you and people at the LCMS church who wouldn't let her commune that day.  But certainly not by them, and mostly, she's just another oppressor.  And by the time you figure that out, it will be your neck on the chopping block, and hers.  As much as you and I butt heads here, I guarantee you I like you a lot more than they do.  I will extend you courtesy, grace, charity and forgiveness.  You think they will. But you're wrong.

The better way, in fact, the Christian way, is to say "when offense is given, apology is owed, but when no offense was intended, charity and grace are owed, and apology is also owed for false witness if one was accused of intending the offense and did not."  That is, charity, grace, Christian forgiveness.  What you describe -- the receiver of the message gets to decide if it's helpful or hurtful -- simply isn't the way things actually are.  You may wish it were that way, but it isn't.  And if you're going to defend CRT and use terms like "mansplaining" that were coined by the woke left, you should take the time to understand the implications of your alliances.

The people whose language you are co-opting and whose philosophies you are espousing hate you.  Perhaps you the most, because they have to pretend to like you and value you as an ally, when the reality is they think you are a useful idiot.  And they will eat you before this is all said and done.  Either that or you will surrender everything, even your wife's modesty and chastity, and your own faith, to their demands.

Sorry if that's too much mansplaining.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).