Author Topic: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)  (Read 10888 times)

aletheist

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2021, 11:21:40 AM »
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).
Thanks!  I think it's the KJV that states "For the love of money is the root of all evil.."
Correct, but most of the modern translations are similar to the ESV, including the NKJV.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2021, 12:15:19 PM »
First, I think we should be thankful for a dialog in which original sin is part of the discussion.   So thank you, Marie Meyer.   Ask Average Joe about that anymore.  It's a non-starter.  So what is the essence of original sin and how does it relate to racism?  Some say pride - being as God.  I think power and control.  The need to have the same Weltanschaung as God - I run this place.  Don't tell me which trees are good and bad.

Race as an aspect of that in these latter times become a way to keep people in their place, and to determine pecking order according to the power grid.  We get locked into our American perspective, to be sure, because of slavery and the way "we" ran over the indigenous people on our way to our Manifest Destiny.

The folks I am with on a daily basis, though, were in large part connected to the various European colonial enterprises, by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch and the English.  So some of the antagonism between those of Indo-Asian heritage and African heritage through the Caribbean come from the way the colonial British set the system up, with those from India who were placed as those who were in middle management and one/two steps above the indigenes and the African-based indentured.   To this day the power and control granted brings a differentiation between/among those groups.  All of it - all of it, is about power and control.  It is "racial" as well, because the lighter melatonin folks held sway (even the Spanish/Portuguese/Italian are included, although to us Teutons they are "swarthy").

At the end of the day, however, the original sin returns to its source, power and control as a god. 

Jesus is the Upside-Down Kingdom of God initiator, isn't He?  Servant - not the person AT the table, but the person WAITING on the table.  That guy - in those days no tipping required, by the way. 

So maybe we could open up a dialog on Servant Leadership as the alternative to Power and Control in the Realm of God.  Maybe someone might even tune in.

Dave Benke

From Ibram X Kendi in 2019 at the "National Anti-Racist Book Festival" hosted by American University.

"You know America was stamped from the beginning to build and maintain the power of of white folk. We've never had a democracy in order to have freedom, you have to have power or you have to have power in order to be free. People of color have never had power. Women have never had power. Antiracists must organize and accumulate power. The power to make and break policy."

So yeah, it's about power.  And this is about the dumbest possible way to try and divide up the polis.  That would be Glenn Loury and John McWhorter that would agree there.  The leadership in the country is so terrible it is hard to describe.  That this stuff could become the default religion of the American upper class with plenty of useful idiots in all the institutions pushing it is just hard to fathom.

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2021, 12:49:08 PM »
Seems we are reduced to two sides shouting at one another again here.  Some things never change...

All the discussions of "White Fragility" etc here the past year got me thinking of reading a contrarian POV.  I settled on Voddie Baucham's book, "Fault Lines."  I recommend it wholeheartedly.

https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2021, 01:00:37 PM »
I'm up at Camp Luther this week with spotty internet and even spottier desire to be online, but I have been checking in from time to time. Last week I put together a draft of a policy for our school concerning racial issues. We haven't adopted it yet, but I'd appreciate any feedback that might help hone it into a better statement. We'll probably be voting on it or something like it in August.

St. Paulís Lutheran Church and School teaches in accord with Godís Word that God made mankind in His image and that all human beings share the same origin, suffer from the same fall into sin, and are offered full redemption in Jesus Christ. Strictly speaking, there is only one human race. Accordingly, we serve students and families of all ethnicities and colors without distinction. We seek to provide a learning environment in which skin color is irrelevant and the children of any ethnicity do not talk about their black friends or their white friends but simply about their friends.

We also acknowledge that despite Christianityís clear teaching that all people have the same inherent value and ultimate origin, differences in skin color have often led to injustice, bitter hatreds, prejudice, and divisions in the world and even among Christians. These sins and afflictions can be difficult to overcome, and Godís Word calls to repentance anyone who manifests or perpetuates them. Although we may be required for some government purposes to classify our students according to their ethnicity, race, or skin color, such classifications work against our Christian and educational mission and purpose, so we strive not to import them into the classrooms or into the hearts and minds of our students.

We reject any religious doctrine, sociological theory, or educational practice that
   --perpetuates negative stereotypes based on race/color;
   --tolerates abusive language based on race/color;
   --accuses people of being racist based on their race/color;
   --categorizes or segregates students according to race/color;
   --asks students to classify themselves or others according to race/color;
   --applies differing academic expectations or standards of behavior based on race/color;
        --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color;
        --treats individuals as representatives of their race/color.

We will address with Godís Word and sound management principles any faculty, staff, student, or parent who violates these teachings and policies. Persistent violations may lead to removal from the St. Paulís Lutheran Church and School community.


peter_speckhard

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2021, 01:20:23 PM »
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM »
I'm up at Camp Luther this week with spotty internet and even spottier desire to be online, but I have been checking in from time to time. Last week I put together a draft of a policy for our school concerning racial issues. We haven't adopted it yet, but I'd appreciate any feedback that might help hone it into a better statement. We'll probably be voting on it or something like it in August.

St. Paulís Lutheran Church and School teaches in accord with Godís Word that God made mankind in His image and that all human beings share the same origin, suffer from the same fall into sin, and are offered full redemption in Jesus Christ. Strictly speaking, there is only one human race. Accordingly, we serve students and families of all ethnicities and colors without distinction. We seek to provide a learning environment in which skin color is irrelevant and the children of any ethnicity do not talk about their black friends or their white friends but simply about their friends.

We also acknowledge that despite Christianityís clear teaching that all people have the same inherent value and ultimate origin, differences in skin color have often led to injustice, bitter hatreds, prejudice, and divisions in the world and even among Christians. These sins and afflictions can be difficult to overcome, and Godís Word calls to repentance anyone who manifests or perpetuates them. Although we may be required for some government purposes to classify our students according to their ethnicity, race, or skin color, such classifications work against our Christian and educational mission and purpose, so we strive not to import them into the classrooms or into the hearts and minds of our students.

We reject any religious doctrine, sociological theory, or educational practice that
   --perpetuates negative stereotypes based on race/color;
   --tolerates abusive language based on race/color;
   --accuses people of being racist based on their race/color;
   --categorizes or segregates students according to race/color;
   --asks students to classify themselves or others according to race/color;
   --applies differing academic expectations or standards of behavior based on race/color;
        --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color;
        --treats individuals as representatives of their race/color.

We will address with Godís Word and sound management principles any faculty, staff, student, or parent who violates these teachings and policies. Persistent violations may lead to removal from the St. Paulís Lutheran Church and School community.

I like this statement.

One change I would suggest is in the bolded words "led to." It sounds as if the color differences themselves cause the wickedness. More accurate would be "been the excuse for".

The phrase "  --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color" is only half of that story, which also includes expecting or assuming antagonism or rivalry between people of different races or colors.

God bless you in your work.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Mark Brown

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2021, 01:42:20 PM »
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   

The deep problem is how do you prevent those whose monomaniacal focus is on power from taking over.  As evidenced by the state of many of the important institutions on our Republic, we've failed.  The vast majority of everybody would rather not live such a stunted life, but the zealots won't allow that. And so far the sane left (if you believe in such a thing) is completely unwilling to stand up. Rod Dreher said recently thinking of Hungary and Orban "we might need some soft authoritarianism to save us from soft totalitarianism."  Because that is what this stuff is, totalitarian.  It reduces all of life to who/whom.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2021, 02:25:48 PM »
Seems we are reduced to two sides shouting at one another again here.  Some things never change...

All the discussions of "White Fragility" etc here the past year got me thinking of reading a contrarian POV.  I settled on Voddie Baucham's book, "Fault Lines."  I recommend it wholeheartedly.

https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/

This is what happens when you get forced into a binary choice, us versus them, when it becomes all about power.

For myself, I've tried to make clear that I am all for discussing the failings of America, from its founding to the present day.  What I cannot accept, and I believe is unconstitutional racial discrimination, is anything government sanctioned or tolerated by law which treats people differently according to their race.  That includes requiring all whites to accept blame and culpability for things they, as individuals, have nothing to do with.
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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2021, 03:20:46 PM »
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2021, 03:39:02 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2021, 04:23:07 PM »
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).
Thanks!  I think it's the KJV that states "For the love of money is the root of all evil.."
Correct, but most of the modern translations are similar to the ESV, including the NKJV.


However, the CEB has: "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."


Of course I'll bring in the Greek.


ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ φιλαργυρία,
root for of-all of-the evils is the love-of-money


While ῥίζα (=root) does not have a definite article = "a root". The fact that it is modified by a genitive, "of all the evils," a translator can supply "the" to root.


This is usually done with υἱὸς θεοῦ = "(a) son of (a) God" with no articles; or in some cases υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ = "(a) son of the God", but it is usually translated, "the Son of God" or occasionally, "God's Son" (Mt 4:3, 67; 14:33; 27:40, 43, 54; Mk 1:1; 15:39; Luke 4:3, 9; John 10:36; 19:7). The modifier "of God" can make it a definition son, i.e., "the son." So, similarly, the modifier: of all the evils" could make it a definite root: "the root."


"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2021, 04:23:46 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2021, 04:28:53 PM »
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   


I think that the attitude that we have something good to give to them has already set us up as the superior people. Consider a contrasting view: God is already present with those people and we go to discover what God is teaching us through them. (Of course much of the colonialism was about taking from the people - their precious metals and gems; not what they might teach us about God.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2021, 04:31:21 PM »
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2021, 05:23:16 PM »
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you wrote: "Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command."  I think you have just answered your own question.