Author Topic: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)  (Read 10885 times)

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2021, 03:10:00 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
With the consent/approval of the government.  Colleges lower admission standards for minorities and women.  Affirmation Action hiring of less qualified candidates based simply on skin color or gender. 

Me:
And that may be some of the “extra obligations“ that father Slusser mentioned.
I don’t think I care for all of it either, but get over it.

The point, Rev. Austin, is that if you think that YOU benefitted unfairly by being white, that is one thing.  But for you to claim that ALL whites have -- and currently do -- benefit, that is another.  And it would be flat-out wrong.  Get over it?  Tell that to the young white man who was denied admission to the college of his choice simply because he was a white male.  Or the young white man who was passed over for promotion in favor of one less qualified, simply because he was a white male.  If you want to do penance for unfair advantages you personally received, go ahead.  But do not tell that young white male who has been denied equal treatment that it is fair -- HE did not benefit from "white privilege", YOU did.  And now you want him to not only pay the piper for your unfair advantages, you want him to say "thank you, sir, may I have another?".  My goodness, man, do you not see the evil of that?  YOU benefitted unfairly (so you say), but now another (not YOU) should suffer for it.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2021, 03:20:29 PM »
"At least nine Catholic and Anglican churches across Canada have gone up in flames amid a backlash over the country's use of church-run residential schools to forcibly assimilate indigenous children from the late 19th century until the 1970s."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-church-fires-first-nation-residential-schools-graves?cmpid=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR2p4g9-Nhhy8lvH7sU23Iq4-PayhnN6sGGxO-VCJSLPPWuM3yHsekmwk-Y

https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/07/bc-civil-liberties-association-boss-calls-for-church-burnings/

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2021, 03:26:40 PM »

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 03:32:16 PM by MaddogLutheran »
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Dave Likeness

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5100
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2021, 03:27:09 PM »
Perhaps the New Jersey Transplant in Minnesota needs to join the 21st century.
I would second the motion of Pastor Bohler that some colleges are recruiting non-white males
due to some unwritten quota system.  As far as job promotions are concerned major companies
are demonstrating a willingness to become more diverse employers by promoting non-white males.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2021, 03:33:32 PM »

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2021, 03:41:31 PM »

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.

CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty? 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2021, 03:44:09 PM »

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

You embarrass yourself with this non-sequitor, again.  I'm taking about civil affairs, and I reject your theocratic inclinations.  The 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection has nothing to do with God's Law here.  I specifically mentioned that such a thing violates the civil law.   That's not how any of that works.  Just because I used the word "accusation" does not mean you can reflexively play the word association game in response and suggest a context I did not mean.

Perhaps you should reflect on what you have just done and consider your guilt.  Because you have sinned against me by  misrepresenting my words.  I tell you this plainly for all the good it will (not) do.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2021, 03:48:28 PM »

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?


If it is my theory that such jokes are harmless because they are jokes; and I'm challenged on that by someone who is hurt by such words, because they are living by a different theory; I might have to examine my theory. I could be wrong.


One of the issues with the COVID-19 is that they operated on a theory, which was later modified, and modified again and again as new and better information was learned about the virus.


Perhaps another term for this is paradigm. which has been defined: "What we think is the correct way of viewing things." (Jean Morris Trumbauer, Sharing the Ministry: A Practical Guide for Transforming Volunteers into Ministers, p. 34)


When we learn that our "correct way of viewing things" is no longer correct, then we need a paradigm shift. A change in what we consider the correct way of viewing things. Major shifts occurred during the pandemic as congregations had to learn new ways of viewing and doing church, e.g., zoom worship and meetings, new ways of distributing communion, etc.


As we learn more about historical events from the view of the victims: Blacks, Native Americans, Japanese, Chinese, etc. Our "correct way of viewing things" has been challenged and for many requires looking at things in new and different ways.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2021, 03:53:10 PM »
So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.

CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?
This is a great point.  Attempting to treat white racial guilt and responsibility as "original sin", tainting all, is offensive to the civil law.  It's just variation of chattle slavery based on race.  One drop of African blood?  You're no longer a person and can be enslaved...even if you look "white".  This kind of racial gamesmanship has always been poison.  Both slavery and CRT do have one thing in common...they are both about obtaining and maintaining power over others.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2021, 03:53:34 PM »
You embarrass yourself with this non-sequitor, again.  I'm taking about civil affairs, and I reject your theocratic inclinations.  The 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection has nothing to do with God's Law here.  I specifically mentioned that such a thing violates the civil law.   That's not how any of that works.  Just because I used the word "accusation" does not mean you can reflexively play the word association game in response and suggest a context I did not mean.

Perhaps you should reflect on what you have just done and consider your guilt.  Because you have sinned against me by  misrepresenting my words.  I tell you this plainly for all the good it will (not) do.


God uses Law (and it makes no difference whether the laws are civil laws, divine laws, commands from my mother or wife) in two ways. To bring order to society by curbing bad behaviors and encouraging good behaviors; and to convict us of our sins.


I repent of my sin against you and point out that you did not interpret my response in the best possible light either.


This is not the first, nor will it be the last time I embarrass myself.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 03:58:18 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2021, 03:57:33 PM »
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2021, 04:07:58 PM »
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
For the final time, being found guilty under God's law is nothing like how the civil law works.  Being white is not a crime.  Such racial discrimination is unconstitutional and illegal.  That's what is so offensive about CRT, because it attempts to teach just that.

Objection to CRT does not mean that the United States history of racial inequality should suddenly not be taught.  Contrary to the CRT advocates, who want to suggest it is not being taught without their bravery, it has been a mainstay of the American education curriculum since the Civil Rights movement happened.  Especially why the Civil Right Act of 1964 was especially historic and necessary, to deliver more fully on the words of the Declaration of Independence.  But they want something more, which is new, novel, dangerous, and divisive.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 04:16:04 PM by MaddogLutheran »
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2021, 04:10:40 PM »
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So, I guess by your reasoning that all are generically guilty, I am guilty, by association, because of my "whiteness" of all apparent sins of racism.  God's law does not have to condemn me in this case, just the unfortunate burden of my whiteness and its connection with the past sins of those I never knew.  The implications of this are enormous.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

pastorg1@aol.com

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1040
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2021, 04:34:40 PM »
White folks talking to White folks, getting into divisive snits: Marxist CRT working according to plan… excellent.


Peter (Wampanoag and Neanderthal DNA White guy 1% Sephardic Jew) Garrison
Pete Garrison, STS

mariemeyer

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2021, 04:41:26 PM »
DeHall1  ask the question....

Which of these resolutions SPECIFICALLY "do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation."?


RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;


In this resolve there is an assumption that the CRT supports the idea... Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality."   

The Mid South rejects any doctrine that teaches "Any individual is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry or nationality."   That sounds to me as if the LCMS Mid-South District rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Might the CRT be on to something that is Biblical and in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions.  Seems to me that the CTCR report Racism connected racism with our human ancestry that goes back to the Fall.  The problem, according to the CTCR report, is both the denial and self-defensiveness of how we humans are inclined to erect barriers between humans on the basis of visual distinctions.

Marie Meyer