Supreme Court rules in favor of Catholic foster agency

Started by Tom Eckstein, June 17, 2021, 12:10:33 PM

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Tom Eckstein

Now, if only the Supreme court could apply this same unanimous agreement to, let's say, someone who doesn't want to decorate a cake in such a way that would conflict with their religious convictions.
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Dan Fienen

Just wait, this case will likely end up being a warm up for more cases testing this point of law. Besides Jack Pillips could well be heading back to the Supreme Court.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

David Garner

Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2021, 01:23:34 PM
Just wait, this case will likely end up being a warm up for more cases testing this point of law. Besides Jack Pillips could well be heading back to the Supreme Court.

One hopes this case is bounced well before it gets back to the Supreme Court, but the hubris of these lower court judges apparently knows no bounds.  To wit:

"The anti-discrimination laws are intended to ensure that members of our society who have historically been treated unfairly, who have been deprived of even the every-day right to access businesses to buy products, are no longer treated as 'others.'"

-- Judge A. Bruce Jones, Denver District Court

It doesn't occur to this buffoon that by making a content based judgment on who can and cannot speak, he is literally othering a much larger class of people, declaring their sincerely held beliefs to be out of bounds.  No, because we have not "historically been treated unfairly" (history lasting only the past few hundred years apparently), we must NOW be treated unfairly, driven from the public square and marketplace unless we endorse with full throat the prevailing orthodoxy (as defined, of course, by government and major corporate interests).

Of course, this is precisely what the Supreme Court forbade in the first Masterpiece Cakeshop case, and in Fulton v. Philadelphia today.

Source for the above quote.

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/06/16/jack-phillips-transgender-cake/

At some point, we have to start suing under anti-SLAPP laws to punish the fools who persist in abusing the process of the Courts to impose said orthodoxy.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

New York Times, today:
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court announced on Friday that it would not hear an appeal from a florist in Washington State who said she had a constitutional right to refuse to create a floral arrangement for a same-sex wedding. The move left open a question the court last considered in 2018, when a similar dispute between a Colorado baker and a gay couple failed to yield a definitive ruling.

As is its custom, the court did not give reasons for declining to hear the case, which social conservatives had hoped the justices would use to make a clearer statement favoring religious beliefs over gay rights. Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch said they would have granted the florist's petition seeking Supreme Court review.

Lower courts have generally sided with gay and lesbian couples who were refused service, ruling that they are entitled to equal treatment, at least in parts of the country with laws forbidding discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 03, 2021, 09:26:53 AM
New York Times, today:
Lower courts have generally sided with gay and lesbian couples who were refused service, ruling that they are entitled to equal treatment, at least in parts of the country with laws forbidding discrimination based on sexual orientation.

If this is true then the pending Equality Act should have broad and virtually unquestioned legal support when it is eventually adopted and implemented throughout the country.  Chilling prospects for conservative Christian institutions, especially ones in education.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Matt Hummel

Hey guys-

Do you remember when that notorious kataholophobe, Jim Kenney, mayor of Philadelphia, declared war on Catholic Charities in stopped their adoption and foster care program because "hatred?"

And remember the way all the LGBTQ+ folks stepped in to pick up the slack, and the way all the liberal protestant groups took the baton so that kids in foster care didn't stack up like cordwood?

Yeah, me neither.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

David Garner

Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 03, 2021, 12:22:01 PM
Hey guys-

Do you remember when that notorious kataholophobe, Jim Kenney, mayor of Philadelphia, declared war on Catholic Charities in stopped their adoption and foster care program because "hatred?"

And remember the way all the LGBTQ+ folks stepped in to pick up the slack, and the way all the liberal protestant groups took the baton so that kids in foster care didn't stack up like cordwood?

Yeah, me neither.

As with most things on this topic, it was never about the kids.  It's about the adults.  That isn't to say there aren't a lot of loving gay and lesbian families who adopt kids (or in the case of the latter, have them naturally) and care and nurture and provide a good loving home.  It is to say, that isn't even close to being what the politics of the matter is about.  The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Note, nothing has been said indicating Catholic Charities mistreats children, or that adopted or foster kids in their care are underserved or abused in any way.  More, there is no indication at all that Catholic Charities prevents gay and lesbian couples from adopting or fostering children, and in fact the opposite is true -- they explicitly refer gay and lesbian parents to adoption and foster agencies that will help them.  The only measure for Catholic Charities being denied the opportunity to serve the community in this way is whether their beliefs are right or wrong, as defined by their government masters.  The government has decided their sincere religious beliefs are wrong.  That is, this is 100% viewpoint based discrimination designed not to better serve children, but to gain power over people who hold "wrong" opinions and force them to conform their views to the preferred views of the government.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

Mr. Garner:
The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Me:
So "Christian belief" has so much power? That it needs to be suppressed? How paranoid are you?
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

David Garner

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 05, 2021, 11:30:56 AM
Mr. Garner:
The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Me:
So "Christian belief" has so much power? That it needs to be suppressed? How paranoid are you?

Extremely.  I'm also afraid.  And hateful.  And angry.  Oh, I'm very, very angry.  I'm also all the other stupid things you call people who commit the high crime of disagreeing with your political views.  But at least I'm not predictable.  So I have that going for me, which is nice.

I'm fascinated to see you think Christian belief is impotent though.  It squares precisely with your behavior toward those who think it's important (one little "r" makes a lot of difference here).  You lampoon those of us who think Christian doctrine is important.  But you fail to realize you are no different in approach.  You think political doctrine is far more important, and you treat heretics accordingly.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

Wrong again on all points, Mr. Garner.
But carry on.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 05, 2021, 11:30:56 AM
Mr. Garner:
The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Me:
So "Christian belief" has so much power? That it needs to be suppressed? How paranoid are you?

Extremely.  I'm also afraid.  And hateful.  And angry.  Oh, I'm very, very angry.  I'm also all the other stupid things you call people who commit the high crime of disagreeing with your political views.  But at least I'm not predictable.  So I have that going for me, which is nice.

I'm fascinated to see you think Christian belief is impotent though.  It squares precisely with your behavior toward those who think it's important (one little "r" makes a lot of difference here).  You lampoon those of us who think Christian doctrine is important.  But you fail to realize you are no different in approach.  You think political doctrine is far more important, and you treat heretics accordingly.


Christian belief is centered on the facts that we all are sinners. We all are forgiven sinners by God by grace through Jesus Christ, God's Son, our Lord who was crucified for us and raised from the dead. Where in our creeds does it say that Christian belief is about opposing same-sex marriages?


We gospel-centered Christians are continually fighting the mistaken belief that Christianity is about rules and regulations that we must follow - those who make that their Christian belief are modern Judaizers.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

JEdwards

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 05, 2021, 01:29:33 PM
We gospel-centered Christians are continually fighting the mistaken belief that Christianity is about rules and regulations that we must follow - those who make that their Christian belief are modern Judaizers.
Why do you fight?  Don't you realize that Christians are called to be peacemakers?
Why would you want to address mistaken belief?  Aren't you thereby suggesting that we are saved by the correctness of our beliefs?
Anyway, how do you know that Christianity is not about rules and regulations we must follow?  That may be your interpretation, but why is any one person's interpretation inherently better than anyone else's?
Oh, the militarism and works righteousness and narrow-mindedness is almost too much to bear!

David Garner

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 05, 2021, 12:52:21 PM
Wrong again on all points, Mr. Garner.
But carry on.

Of course.  Thank you for your correction.

And for graciously allowing me to carry on.  You are a credit to your name sir.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 05, 2021, 01:29:33 PM
Quote from: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 05, 2021, 11:30:56 AM
Mr. Garner:
The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Me:
So "Christian belief" has so much power? That it needs to be suppressed? How paranoid are you?

Extremely.  I'm also afraid.  And hateful.  And angry.  Oh, I'm very, very angry.  I'm also all the other stupid things you call people who commit the high crime of disagreeing with your political views.  But at least I'm not predictable.  So I have that going for me, which is nice.

I'm fascinated to see you think Christian belief is impotent though.  It squares precisely with your behavior toward those who think it's important (one little "r" makes a lot of difference here).  You lampoon those of us who think Christian doctrine is important.  But you fail to realize you are no different in approach.  You think political doctrine is far more important, and you treat heretics accordingly.


Christian belief is centered on the facts that we all are sinners. We all are forgiven sinners by God by grace through Jesus Christ, God's Son, our Lord who was crucified for us and raised from the dead. Where in our creeds does it say that Christian belief is about opposing same-sex marriages?


We gospel-centered Christians are continually fighting the mistaken belief that Christianity is about rules and regulations that we must follow - those who make that their Christian belief are modern Judaizers.

Who said anything about same-sex marriages, or even rules and regulations?  Here's what I said, with Father Matthew's comment providing context for my response to it:

Quote from: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 11:01:02 AM
Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 03, 2021, 12:22:01 PM
Hey guys-

Do you remember when that notorious kataholophobe, Jim Kenney, mayor of Philadelphia, declared war on Catholic Charities in stopped their adoption and foster care program because "hatred?"

And remember the way all the LGBTQ+ folks stepped in to pick up the slack, and the way all the liberal protestant groups took the baton so that kids in foster care didn't stack up like cordwood?

Yeah, me neither.

As with most things on this topic, it was never about the kids.  It's about the adults.  That isn't to say there aren't a lot of loving gay and lesbian families who adopt kids (or in the case of the latter, have them naturally) and care and nurture and provide a good loving home.  It is to say, that isn't even close to being what the politics of the matter is about.  The politics is about power.  The easiest way to gain that power is to suppress Christian belief. 

Note, nothing has been said indicating Catholic Charities mistreats children, or that adopted or foster kids in their care are underserved or abused in any way.  More, there is no indication at all that Catholic Charities prevents gay and lesbian couples from adopting or fostering children, and in fact the opposite is true -- they explicitly refer gay and lesbian parents to adoption and foster agencies that will help them.  The only measure for Catholic Charities being denied the opportunity to serve the community in this way is whether their beliefs are right or wrong, as defined by their government masters.  The government has decided their sincere religious beliefs are wrong.  That is, this is 100% viewpoint based discrimination designed not to better serve children, but to gain power over people who hold "wrong" opinions and force them to conform their views to the preferred views of the government.

After that, Pastor Austin said I was paranoid because I thought Christian belief had power.  But my point all along was the desire was to stifle Christian belief, and the point (had Pastor Austin bothered to try to ask questions instead of flinging stupid accusations of paranoia) was that deeply held Christian belief stands in the way of the political power to impose a government-preferred view of homosexuality.  And so the point of laws barring Catholic Charities from participating in adoption or foster care services is not to protect children, or even to ensure access, because no one has ever said Catholic Charities harmed children or impeded access.  In fact, as I noted, Catholic Charities actively refers gay and lesbian couples to other agencies which will help them foster or adopt.  Therefore, stopping Catholic Charities is not about the children, it is about punishing wrong think so the government's preferred viewpoint can stand unopposed.

After Pastor Austin leveled his stupid accusation of paranoia, I responded with this:

Quote from: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 12:10:34 PMI'm fascinated to see you think Christian belief is impotent though.  It squares precisely with your behavior toward those who think it's important (one little "r" makes a lot of difference here).  You lampoon those of us who think Christian doctrine is important.  But you fail to realize you are no different in approach.  You think political doctrine is far more important, and you treat heretics accordingly.

So thank you, at least, for proving my point by bringing up same sex marriage.  No one was discussing it, but the only heresy you see is not bowing before the altar of woke leftism.  Your reductionist view of the Gospel keeps you from seeing any other.  You eschew rules, and yet you impose one -- you can't speak against same sex marriage or you have perverted "the Gospel" (as you see it).  You don't find that ironic. 

Most of the rest of us do.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

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