Author Topic: Another contribution to the endless controversy  (Read 30756 times)

mariemeyer

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #525 on: June 23, 2021, 08:07:48 PM »
Good grief! You and Marie carry a lot of baggage!

Again, the clergy-only BS you manufacture (as Steve says, your story keeps changing) is something I’ve never heard. And I hung out for quite a while years back at the Steadfast site among other places.

BTW, your “Try it this way” explanation is logically flawed.

Who might the above "you" be?  Am I in good company?

In any event, I respectfully ask that Donald Kirchner define  the "a lot of baggage" I carry.

Look forward to hearing clarification about the statement made about me.

Marie Meyer

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11527
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #526 on: June 23, 2021, 08:30:38 PM »
Why don't we just articulate those functions of the pastoral office that are unique to it and then we'll know what not to debate.  Unless, someone claims there are no specific functions unique to the OHM.

Proclamation/Preaching, Consecration of the Eucharist, Baptism in most circumstances for three.

Dave Benke


I believe that we have only one: consecration of the eucharist. We have lay people preach. Lay people can baptize in an emergency. In Wyoming when the closest ELCA congregation was 100 miles away, I had one of our lay people lead the non-communion service when I went on vacation.

Try to focus, Brian. Exceptions do not make the rule. Dave provided for emergency baptisms. Covering for  the pastor on vacation is the exception.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #527 on: June 23, 2021, 08:58:22 PM »
There is also the distinction between authorization and efficacy. The drugs work whether a doctor prescribed them or not. The prison works whether one was placed there legally or not. God designed the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design. He didn’t authorize us to change it. But the various functions of it still happen when unauthorized people do them.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12454
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #528 on: June 23, 2021, 09:44:32 PM »
Dave,

No.

No.

BTW, I don’t have a call/congregation.

Available for say a three year situation in an urban setting, 8-10 million people in range, fishing in one of the world's big ponds (I mean fishing for fish as well as people)?

Dave Benke

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11527
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #529 on: June 23, 2021, 10:43:42 PM »
I sincerely appreciate that offer, Dave. But, though it sounds intriguing, I have to pass.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43165
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #530 on: June 24, 2021, 01:47:08 AM »
There is also the distinction between authorization and efficacy. The drugs work whether a doctor prescribed them or not. The prison works whether one was placed there legally or not. God designed the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design. He didn’t authorize us to change it. But the various functions of it still happen when unauthorized people do them.


Where in scriptures do you get this design? What I have found are four different lists of gifts God gives to the church. "Pastor" is listed in only one of them. Those that appear in more than one list are color coded.


1 Corinthians 12:28
In the church, God has appointed
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
then gifts of healing,
the ability to help others,
leadership skills,
different kinds of tongues.


Ephesians 4:11
He gave
some apostles,
some prophets,
some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
A word of wisdom is given by the Spirit to one person,
a word of knowledge to another according to the same Spirit,
faith to still another by the same Spirit,
gifts of healing to another in the one Spirit,
performance of miracles to another,
prophecy to another,
the ability to tell spirits apart to another,
different kinds of tongues to another,
and the interpretation of the tongues to another.

Romans 12:6-8
We have different gifts
that are consistent with God’s grace
that has been given to us.
If your gift is prophecy, you should prophesy in proportion to your faith.
If your gift is service, devote yourself to serving.
If your gift is teaching, devote yourself to teaching.
If your gift is encouragement, devote yourself to encouraging.
The one giving should do it with no strings attached.
The leaders should lead with passion.
The one showing mercy should be cheerful.

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12454
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #531 on: June 24, 2021, 08:26:47 AM »
There is also the distinction between authorization and efficacy. The drugs work whether a doctor prescribed them or not. The prison works whether one was placed there legally or not. God designed the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design. He didn’t authorize us to change it. But the various functions of it still happen when unauthorized people do them.


Where in scriptures do you get this design? What I have found are four different lists of gifts God gives to the church. "Pastor" is listed in only one of them. Those that appear in more than one list are color coded.


1 Corinthians 12:28
In the church, God has appointed
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
then gifts of healing,
the ability to help others,
leadership skills,
different kinds of tongues.


Ephesians 4:11
He gave
some apostles,
some prophets,
some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
A word of wisdom is given by the Spirit to one person,
a word of knowledge to another according to the same Spirit,
faith to still another by the same Spirit,
gifts of healing to another in the one Spirit,
performance of miracles to another,
prophecy to another,
the ability to tell spirits apart to another,
different kinds of tongues to another,
and the interpretation of the tongues to another.

Romans 12:6-8
We have different gifts
that are consistent with God’s grace
that has been given to us.
If your gift is prophecy, you should prophesy in proportion to your faith.
If your gift is service, devote yourself to serving.
If your gift is teaching, devote yourself to teaching.
If your gift is encouragement, devote yourself to encouraging.
The one giving should do it with no strings attached.
The leaders should lead with passion.
The one showing mercy should be cheerful.

This is helpful, Brian.  In these passages the apostles, prophets and teachers are designated as persons, not functions of doctrine, with the purpose that the persons - the Body - might be equipped for the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4:12).  There's a dynamism there that's unmistakable.  The Body is a living organism, not a doctrinal repository.  Its purpose is to work the ministry of Jesus in and for the world.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #532 on: June 24, 2021, 08:47:22 AM »
So, Brian and Dave, are you saying that God didn't design the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design? Or why dispute something we all agree on? The question has nothing to do with whether the church is a living organism as opposed to a doctrinal repository (an assertion which is equally mere dogmatism demanding acceptance), although it is a false an either/or. Doctrine (teaching, declarations, statements of what is true, the content of that which is spoken) is what distinguishes prophets from false prophets, shepherds from wolves, the teacher who is to be received and the teacher who is anathema. So doctrine does sorta kinda matter to how we look at the persons in offices that are there for the building up of the Body.

At any rate, the point of the post was the distinction between authorization and efficacy.


Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12454
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #533 on: June 24, 2021, 09:06:47 AM »
That question is where you and the hyper-uber-ultra-arch guys you find so distasteful disagree. You know that. It is wrong of you to say they simply object to laypeople praying for, visiting, or comforting the flock.


Your attribution of motives and attitudes to me is actually what I find distasteful.   The uber-group is, at least in my experience, fun to be around.  They drink, they smoke cigars, they shoot the breeze. 

What I care about in this instance is the empowerment of the laity to do the work of the ministry in the Body of Christ.  This is biblical, appropriate, and takes, in my opinion, a strong and secure sense of the pastoral office, which teaches, leads by example, and equips.  Your invented stories I guess are designed to indicate that the pastor has a ministry of visitation and care, and that it's distinct from the ministry of visitation and care of the laity.  The pastor leads by example, yes.  He also leads by equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.  Both/and.  What is the distinction - the pastor is both visitor and equipper.  The pastor can't abandon visitation, nor should he hold it to himself only.  It's as basic as that.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #534 on: June 24, 2021, 09:42:53 AM »
That question is where you and the hyper-uber-ultra-arch guys you find so distasteful disagree. You know that. It is wrong of you to say they simply object to laypeople praying for, visiting, or comforting the flock.


Your attribution of motives and attitudes to me is actually what I find distasteful.   The uber-group is, at least in my experience, fun to be around.  They drink, they smoke cigars, they shoot the breeze. 

What I care about in this instance is the empowerment of the laity to do the work of the ministry in the Body of Christ.  This is biblical, appropriate, and takes, in my opinion, a strong and secure sense of the pastoral office, which teaches, leads by example, and equips.  Your invented stories I guess are designed to indicate that the pastor has a ministry of visitation and care, and that it's distinct from the ministry of visitation and care of the laity.  The pastor leads by example, yes.  He also leads by equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.  Both/and.  What is the distinction - the pastor is both visitor and equipper.  The pastor can't abandon visitation, nor should he hold it to himself only.  It's as basic as that.

Dave Benke
Everyone agreed when we were talking about the vocation in the broadest sense that applies to all Christians. All Christians should pray for one another, visit one another, comfort one another, etc. as God gives them opportunity. Nobody had any problem with that. Then you for whatever reason added that you "know for sure that there are plenty of LCMS clergy who would disagree with what we're saying in the sense that their opinion is that visitation/tending/prayer belongs to their Divine Call and no one else should be out there doing that.  Some pastors specifically prohibit even the male elders from praying with the sick, seeing that as a distinctive function of the pastoral office."

Given that we were talking about Christians praying with and for fellow Christians, your assertion that you know pastors who would say that nobody in the congregation besides the pastor should be doing those things was absurd. There aren't plenty or even any pastors who would disagree with what we were saying. When that was repeatedly pointed out to you, you kept doubling down, then came in with "just Wow" when I tried to point out the distinction between what we had been talking about before your observation about "plenty of pastors"  vs. what you seemed to be talking about now, which was not simply fellow Christians praying for visiting one another but some official designee doing so on behalf of the congregation in lieu of the pastor. That's why I wrote up the two scenarios upstream-- to point out that there is a difference that you seem to be glossing over, which causes you to attribute extremely negative attitudes and behaviors to "plenty of pastors" as so insecure in their office that they would object to anyone else praying for the congregation's sick members. Whether or not they are insecure or have a correct understanding of the pastoral office, they wouldn't and don't object to the things you say you know for a fact they object to. They object to something subtly different, and only by treating them as the same thing can you ascribe such silliness to "plenty of pastors." 

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13589
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #535 on: June 24, 2021, 10:04:59 AM »
Peter, to the NYC Bishop emeritus:
…your assertion that you know pastors who would say that nobody in the congregation besides the pastor should be doing those things was absurd…
I ponder:
Precisely what is absurd? That Bishop Benke would know such people? That they should think such a thing? Or that he should comment on it here?
It sounds as if you don’t believe what he saying.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3793
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #536 on: June 24, 2021, 10:12:32 AM »
Peter, to the NYC Bishop emeritus:
…your assertion that you know pastors who would say that nobody in the congregation besides the pastor should be doing those things was absurd…
I ponder:
Precisely what is absurd? That Bishop Benke would know such people? That they should think such a thing? Or that he should comment on it here?
It sounds as if you don’t believe what he saying.

It is absurd because, on the one hand he claims that he personally dealt with such pastors in his own district as the district president (and even set them straight over coffee or amber liquid), and then on the other hand, says that all such pastors are in the midwest/upper midwest.  It is absurd because, on the one hand he claims to know these pastors personally, and then on the other hand, says that he knows about them only because other district presidents (from the midwest/upper midwest, of course) have told him about them.  It is absurd because he keeps changing the terms of discussion, because he changes his story, because he accuses others of doing what he himself does (such as attributing motives to others).  There are probably more reasons, but that is enough for starters.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #537 on: June 24, 2021, 10:31:21 AM »
Peter, to the NYC Bishop emeritus:
…your assertion that you know pastors who would say that nobody in the congregation besides the pastor should be doing those things was absurd…
I ponder:
Precisely what is absurd? That Bishop Benke would know such people? That they should think such a thing? Or that he should comment on it here?
It sounds as if you don’t believe what he saying.
It was absurd (and offensive) to say that plenty of LCMS pastors would object to their lay members praying for one another or visiting each other in the hospital, etc. No such pastors exist. He has never met or talked to one. What he has possibly met or talked is some pastors who object to lay visitation ministers making pastoral visits officially on behalf of the congregation in lieu of the pastor. Those pastors may or may not be all wet in their objections to lay ministers, but that is separate argument from what we were talking about, as the two scenarios I presented upstream attempted to demonstrate. It could have all been a misunderstanding except that no matter how many times people objected or pointed out the distinction, he persisted in asserting that plenty of LCMS pastors object to their members praying for the sick and so forth. Which is an absurd (and offensive) thing to say.   

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43165
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #538 on: June 24, 2021, 01:03:55 PM »
So, Brian and Dave, are you saying that God didn't design the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design? Or why dispute something we all agree on? The question has nothing to do with whether the church is a living organism as opposed to a doctrinal repository (an assertion which is equally mere dogmatism demanding acceptance), although it is a false an either/or. Doctrine (teaching, declarations, statements of what is true, the content of that which is spoken) is what distinguishes prophets from false prophets, shepherds from wolves, the teacher who is to be received and the teacher who is anathema. So doctrine does sorta kinda matter to how we look at the persons in offices that are there for the building up of the Body.

At any rate, the point of the post was the distinction between authorization and efficacy.


And my question is where do you find scriptures authorizing only a "pastor" as the leader of the pack? These lists indicate that God gives many different gifts to members of congregations that are all to be used for equipping each other for the work of ministry and for building up the body of Christ. This paragraph ends with: "The body makes itself grow in that it builds itself up with love as each one does their part" (Eph 4:16d, CEB boldface added).

I have admitted that I was doing too much at my last Call. (I was the pastor, secretary, and musician. Partly, because I was better at those jobs than anyone they could hire for what they could afford to pay.) I wasn't allowing others to do their parts, to use their gifts, to help the body grow.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #539 on: June 24, 2021, 01:26:24 PM »
So, Brian and Dave, are you saying that God didn't design the congregation with the pastoral office built into the design? Or why dispute something we all agree on? The question has nothing to do with whether the church is a living organism as opposed to a doctrinal repository (an assertion which is equally mere dogmatism demanding acceptance), although it is a false an either/or. Doctrine (teaching, declarations, statements of what is true, the content of that which is spoken) is what distinguishes prophets from false prophets, shepherds from wolves, the teacher who is to be received and the teacher who is anathema. So doctrine does sorta kinda matter to how we look at the persons in offices that are there for the building up of the Body.

At any rate, the point of the post was the distinction between authorization and efficacy.


And my question is where do you find scriptures authorizing only a "pastor" as the leader of the pack? These lists indicate that God gives many different gifts to members of congregations that are all to be used for equipping each other for the work of ministry and for building up the body of Christ. This paragraph ends with: "The body makes itself grow in that it builds itself up with love as each one does their part" (Eph 4:16d, CEB boldface added).

I have admitted that I was doing too much at my last Call. (I was the pastor, secretary, and musician. Partly, because I was better at those jobs than anyone they could hire for what they could afford to pay.) I wasn't allowing others to do their parts, to use their gifts, to help the body grow.
I never said I found it anywhere. I never it at all. I said God designed the congregation with the office of pastor built into the design.