Author Topic: Another contribution to the endless controversy  (Read 30516 times)

George Rahn

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #420 on: June 19, 2021, 07:53:22 PM »
Brian, I’ve also had experience in ecumenical dialogue with Missouri Synod theologians who will listen to a Presbyterian explain what they believe about the sacrament and the real presence of Christ in the elements,  and then look that Presbyterian right in the eye and say “I don’t believe you,” and cite Calvin or some ancient worthy to “prove” that the modern Presbyterian can’t possibly believe what the Presbyterian says he actually does believe.
Finished here, I am.

Ok.  However the Presbyterian may not be representing their confessional teaching in terms of what that denomination might officially confess and teach.  Could be that there would be a personal difference between what the Presbyterian is explaining to the hearer and it contradict the Reformed confessional teaching itself.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 07:55:13 PM by George Rahn »

George Rahn

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #421 on: June 19, 2021, 08:01:05 PM »
Much of this can be cleared up by pushing folks toward listening and agreeing with what Jesus is saying in the original institution of Holy Communion.  Jesus says: “This is my Body, given for you.”  Jesus is saying that this bread is His Body.  Lutherans take Jesus at His word.  We don’t reflect and say to ourselves, “What does He mean here?”  See the errors Jesus addresses in John 6.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 08:02:56 PM by George Rahn »

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #422 on: June 19, 2021, 08:30:53 PM »
Rev. Austin and Rev. Stoffregen,

And the two of you do that very thing right here -- telling us LCMS folks that you don't believe what we say we believe, right after we explain it to you.  Or that it doesn't matter what we actually say or write or teach, what matters is how others perceive it -- and that they are right in holding those perceptions (despite our protests) because, well, we are those darn mean old LCMS'ers who once told your wife that she could not commune in the church she left for another church body -- even though her dad was once the congregational president and she went to an LCMS university and your grandmother (or something) was Jewish.  And something about head-coverings.  Oh, and shrimp.  I better not forget the shrimp.  And Broadway plays and sand-castles.  And foreign trips where you visited with your dear friend, the pope.  So, of course, you know better than we do what we believe and why.  Even though we have studied for years in LCMS schools and served in the LCMS for decades.  No, no, no -- you two know everything about the LCMS and we know nothing.  My goodness, one of you was even a JOURNALIST!  So, of course, you must know it all!

Charles Austin

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #423 on: June 19, 2021, 08:58:57 PM »
Eat a cookie, Pastor Bohler. Pet a cat. And forget everything having to do with Yankee Stadium.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #424 on: June 19, 2021, 09:15:18 PM »

Simply knowing, or being friends with, or interviewing LCMS leaders does not mean that you know diddly-squat about what our church teaches, or why.  I talk with my doctor.  But that does not mean that I know medicine.  When you are directed to things -- like books or CTCR studies or the like -- which explain what our church teaches (and why), you routinely tell us you are not interested.  So, pardon me if I reject your claim to understand LCMS teachings better than Rev. Fienen.


True, talking to my doctor won't teach me anything about medicine; but listening to him I could learn a lot.

Always the intellectual dishonesty, changing what someone wrote to inflict the cheap shot. 😡

Steve spoke of talking with his doctor, which includes listening.

 ::)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 09:20:38 AM by Donald_Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Dave Likeness

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #425 on: June 19, 2021, 10:06:55 PM »
"forget everything having to do with Yankee Stadium"  Minnesota  transplant from New Jersey

Yankee Stadium is the majestic cathedral of major league baseball.  It is the home of the
New York Yankees who have won 27 World Series Championships.  They are the most
famous and successful sports franchise  in American history.  Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe
DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Mariano  Rivera, Derek Jeter are a few of the Yankees who are
in the MLB Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.   It is impossible to forget Yankee Stadium.

Charles Austin

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #426 on: June 19, 2021, 10:46:48 PM »
Dave Likeness writes:
It is impossible to forget Yankee Stadium.
I comment:
Nonetheless, for the sake of his peace of mind (if he can achieve that), and to avoid wasting cyberspace in this modest forum, Pastor Bohler should.  ;)
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #427 on: June 20, 2021, 07:59:05 AM »
Dave Likeness writes:
It is impossible to forget Yankee Stadium.
I comment:
Nonetheless, for the sake of his peace of mind (if he can achieve that), and to avoid wasting cyberspace in this modest forum, Pastor Bohler should.  ;)

Good golly, I had not thought about that for weeks (since the last time you brought it up in one of these little snotty posts of yours) -- until you brought it up again. Perhaps it is YOU who should forget it.  Unless your intent is simply to stir up trouble.  Which would be evil.  Even satanic.

Charles Austin

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #428 on: June 20, 2021, 09:55:34 AM »
Nah, Stirring up trouble sometimes stimulates discussion, brings out hidden truth, opens up discussion participants, and, by the way, can be fun.
If the stirring is done, as is my wont, with gentility and affection. 😉
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #429 on: June 20, 2021, 11:31:26 AM »
Nah, Stirring up trouble sometimes stimulates discussion, brings out hidden truth, opens up discussion participants, and, by the way, can be fun.
If the stirring is done, as is my wont, with gentility and affection. 😉
Finished here you never will be. You are compulsive.

Charles Austin

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #430 on: June 20, 2021, 12:30:36 PM »
Pastor Fienen, Pastor Kirchner and Bishop Benke have almost as many postings as I have. And, as I have noted before, I am one of the few people here representing a certain progressive viewpoint. I guess that means I have to speak up more often than some other people.
And, as noted above, I try hard to hold to my normal stance of speaking with gentility, wit and affection. It ain’t always easy.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #431 on: June 20, 2021, 12:32:44 PM »
Nah, Stirring up trouble sometimes stimulates discussion, brings out hidden truth, opens up discussion participants, and, by the way, can be fun.
If the stirring is done, as is my wont, with gentility and affection. 😉 

Got it. 
You were stirring with gentility and affection when you stated that LCMS policies were "stupid" earlier in this thread.
You were stirring with gentility and affection on the thread about the American Catholic Bishops discussing an updated teaching statement about Communion a short time ago when you excoriated them in blistering, unloving terms, and painted them as guilty and unforgiven of all the misdeeds of the Catholic Church at large for the scandals about priest-abuse that unfolded over the past decades.   

Randy Bosch

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #432 on: June 20, 2021, 12:35:41 PM »
Nah, Stirring up trouble sometimes stimulates discussion, brings out hidden truth, opens up discussion participants, and, by the way, can be fun.
If the stirring is done, as is my wont, with gentility and affection. 😉
Finished here you never will be. You are compulsive.

Another thread destroyed by Charles Austin, but finished here he will never be.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #433 on: June 20, 2021, 01:19:40 PM »
Nah, Stirring up trouble sometimes stimulates discussion, brings out hidden truth, opens up discussion participants, and, by the way, can be fun.
If the stirring is done, as is my wont, with gentility and affection. 😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgnClrx8N2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ1koU26aeY

mariemeyer

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Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« Reply #434 on: June 20, 2021, 04:37:43 PM »
The following appeared here on June1st...

"Rick Warren’s Saddleback church recently made headlines by ordaining three female leaders. I was grateful to see these women recognized and lent both the public authority and institutional accountability that comes from ordination. But when I read the news, I also thought with a heavy sigh, “Oh, here we go again.” I knew the debate about women’s roles in the church would dominate conversation all week, and I could already predict the rutted arguments I’d hear recited over and over."

Three weeks later and LCMS members of this list remain stuck in the same rut...defending an the order of creation structure where man and woman differ in origin, being, purpose and assigned non-interchangeable positions in relation to one another.

According to the accepted rational  the Genesis 2 biblical account of how God created the human male reveals God's design and will for an immutable pre-fall order of creation where the man, according to his visible created maleness, has natural precedence and authority in relation to woman. [/ This legal structure, known as the order of creation, does not apply in society.  It was for the sake of order and unity in the home and  among the people of God that God ordained the order.   

In the home and among the people of God, the order of creation structure binds God's authority to the man's position in the home and church.  NT texts are interpreted on the basis of the order of creation structure.

In society, God is free to work through man and woman to preserve creation. What Luther referred to as the orders of preservation. 

To date no one here has asked if God the Son violated the order of creation by taking on our human nature...by coming down to us as True God and true Man... by revealing the nature of God, not to regard the lowly estate of a young Jewish as a barrier to God the Son becoming a human man, but the freedom of God to act as God in, through and from the virgin Mary.

Was the incarnation of God the Son the ultimate violation of the order of creation as defined in LCMS literature?

Marie Meyer