Author Topic: Transgender ELCA Bishop  (Read 3873 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42872
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2021, 08:15:17 PM »
All candidates for synodal bishop fill out questionnaires which include the following question:
Quote
5. Are you living in accord with Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline for rostered
persons in the ELCA and do you intend to continue to live in compliance?
O Never Rostered O Yes O No
If no, please explain on following page.
I assume that the candidates must furnish a satisfactory answer for their candidacy to proceed.
There is a new version of Definitions and Guidelines for 2021. It is attached.
The questionnaire I quoted is from the current instructions for Synods.
https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/2021_Toolkit_for_Synod_Bishop_Elections.pdf


These questions are on the form for all rostered leaders:


Have you ever engaged in, been accused of, charged with, or convicted of illegal conduct or a crime, including conduct resulting in suspension or revocation of your driver's license?

Do you have any addictive behavior, including a history of drug, alcohol, or pornographic addictions that might interfere with your ability to serve or continue serving as a rostered leader?

Have you ever engaged in, been accused of, investigated for, sued, or charged with sexual misconduct, sexual harassment, substance abuse, child or spousal neglect or abuse, or financial improprieties?

While in candidacy or on the roster, have you ever engaged in, been accused of, investigated for charged with, or disciplined for any conduct prescribed in Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline?

Are you living in accord with Vision and Expectations and Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline for rostered persons in the ELCA and do you intend to continue to live in compliance?

Have you ever engaged in any behavior or been involved in any situations that, if they became known to the church, might seriously damage your ability to begin or continue in ministry?

https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Sample_Rostered_Leader_Profile.pdf?_ga=2.238378178.373063663.1620860031-1129196707.1602816733
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17137
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2021, 08:20:25 PM »
So if someone is investigated and completely exonerated they still have to put down that they were investigated and/or accused of misconduct? Why?

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5268
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2021, 08:59:55 PM »
All candidates for synodal bishop fill out questionnaires which include the following question:
Quote
5. Are you living in accord with Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline for rostered
persons in the ELCA and do you intend to continue to live in compliance?
O Never Rostered O Yes O No
If no, please explain on following page.
I assume that the candidates must furnish a satisfactory answer for their candidacy to proceed.
There is a new version of Definitions and Guidelines for 2021. It is attached.
The questionnaire I quoted is from the current instructions for Synods.
https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/2021_Toolkit_for_Synod_Bishop_Elections.pdf


These questions are on the form for all rostered leaders:


Have you ever engaged in, been accused of, charged with, or convicted of illegal conduct or a crime, including conduct resulting in suspension or revocation of your driver's license?

Do you have any addictive behavior, including a history of drug, alcohol, or pornographic addictions that might interfere with your ability to serve or continue serving as a rostered leader?

Have you ever engaged in, been accused of, investigated for, sued, or charged with sexual misconduct, sexual harassment, substance abuse, child or spousal neglect or abuse, or financial improprieties?

While in candidacy or on the roster, have you ever engaged in, been accused of, investigated for charged with, or disciplined for any conduct prescribed in Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline?

Are you living in accord with Vision and Expectations and Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline for rostered persons in the ELCA and do you intend to continue to live in compliance?

Have you ever engaged in any behavior or been involved in any situations that, if they became known to the church, might seriously damage your ability to begin or continue in ministry?

https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Sample_Rostered_Leader_Profile.pdf?_ga=2.238378178.373063663.1620860031-1129196707.1602816733
The form you link is from 2014. Back then those questions were on the form for all Rostered Leaders. The question I quoted and linked is from 2021 and is precisely directed to candidates for bishop--which addresses Pr. Mark Brown's query about the new Bishop.

Peace,
Michael
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:04:58 PM by Michael Slusser »
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42872
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2021, 02:12:54 AM »
So if someone is investigated and completely exonerated they still have to put down that they were investigated and/or accused of misconduct? Why?


If an answer to a disclosure question is "yes," an explanation is asked for.


My guesses as for the question are:


(a) bishops don't like to be surprised. Past accusations have a way of showing up again even if they were properly dealt with in the past. In a case I know of, a pastor's past indiscretion was dealt with at the time; but something like 20 years later, it came up again when the wife filed for divorce and when the pastor had accepted a new call in a different synod.


(b) the advice given to bishop candidates: if there is anything shady in the past, it will come to light when running for the higher office. Another issue that came up at the Sierra Pacific Synod was that a candidate who was third after the second ballot had accusations of misconduct (non-sexual) brought against him by 12 women. Some happened two years earlier; but this was disclosed partly by the candidate in his 5 minute speech, but later by the bishop who didn't believe he had disclosed enough about the content of the charges made against him. He was then last in the next round of ballots.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17137
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2021, 08:07:23 AM »
The power of false allegations might be what allows the woke brigade to have such influence and control.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13280
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2021, 09:10:25 AM »
We’re not talking about false allegations, Peter. We’re talking about a previous record, or as they say in the secular world, a rap sheet.
If there were allegations, officially adjudicated and properly resolved, that ought to be on the record.
And the concern for a person’s “record,” is also protection for the Synod, in case that person misbehaves again.
And just to make it perfectly clear, as I have seen things happen over the last 50+ years, I am certain that 99% of the time, the false allegations were not made by people in what now would be the “Woke brigade“  but by arch-conservatives. I have seen even moderate conservatives go with Pit bull fury at someone they thought was straying from what they considered correct.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
😉

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11394
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2021, 09:44:39 AM »
Have you ever...been accused of...

So if someone is investigated and completely exonerated they still have to put down that they were investigated and/or accused of misconduct? Why?

If an answer to a disclosure question is "yes," an explanation is asked for.

The power of false allegations might be what allows the woke brigade to have such influence and control.

We’re not talking about false allegations, Peter.

???
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

jebutler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2021, 10:02:06 AM »
We’re not talking about false allegations, Peter. We’re talking about a previous record, or as they say in the secular world, a rap sheet.


You are a retired journalist. I assume you understand what words mean.

Please define "accused of."

Please define "investigated for."

Please define "or."

Because those are the words used. Not simply convicted or arrested (that's a rap sheet), but accusations and investigations. Even if those accusations are false and the investigation turned up nothing. So yes, the questions would even ask for false allegations, because that person would have been accused of and investigated for whatever the issue is, even if it was a false accusation.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17137
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2021, 10:54:32 AM »
In the end I guess it is not possible to be completely exonerated.

jebutler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2021, 11:04:02 AM »
In the end I guess it is not possible to be completely exonerated.

That's just it. Even if the accusation is investigated and closed, the fact that the nominee has to disclose that is problematic. For many people, the accusation itself is proof of guilt, even if it was found to be unsubstantiated. (I don't know about other states, but all Massachusetts will say after investigation is that the investigators could find on evidence to substantiate the charges. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, they just can find any evidence. That's not an exoneration.)

False accusations do happen. Innocent people should not have to disclose those accusations nor give details about it. Many of them lived through the trauma once, why force them to do it all over again? I would refuse nomination before I'd ever fill out a form like that.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13280
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2021, 11:13:07 AM »
Tough world, ain’t it?
Did you think things had ever been nice and sweet and squeaky clean within church circles?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
😉

Gary Hatcher

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Я православный
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2021, 12:25:27 PM »
I would be grateful if someone could point me to the Assembly action that expanded the LG of our 2009 decision to include the rest of the sexual alphabet.
Gary Hatcher STS,
Pastor St. Paul & First Lutheran Churches
Garnavillo & McGregor, IA

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17137
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2021, 12:37:08 PM »
Tough world, ain’t it?
Did you think things had ever been nice and sweet and squeaky clean within church circles?
Is that your normal response to victims of injustice?

Mark Brown

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • Pastor, St. Mark Lutheran, West Henrietta, NY
    • View Profile
    • Saint Mark's Website
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2021, 01:13:25 PM »
Quote
...Another issue that came up at the Sierra Pacific Synod was that a candidate who was third after the second ballot had accusations of misconduct (non-sexual) brought against him by 12 women. Some happened two years earlier; but this was disclosed partly by the candidate in his 5 minute speech, but later by the bishop who didn't believe he had disclosed enough about the content of the charges made against him. He was then last in the next round of ballots.

Wait, it just keeps getting better.

Winner: Transgendered Person
2nd Place: Homosexual male who created space for the winner
3rd place: Guy who has 12 women making accusations against him, most recent just 2 years ago

Has anybody read 1 Timothy?  Or for that matter 1 Corinthians? Like sheep without a shepherd.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42872
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2021, 02:23:00 PM »
Have you ever...been accused of...

So if someone is investigated and completely exonerated they still have to put down that they were investigated and/or accused of misconduct? Why?

If an answer to a disclosure question is "yes," an explanation is asked for.

The power of false allegations might be what allows the woke brigade to have such influence and control.

We’re not talking about false allegations, Peter.


 ???

I know that, years ago, when I reviewed the disciplinary procedures the Rocky Mountain Synod, allegations against a pastor had to be in writing by the accuser. If they were proven to be false, then perjury charges could be taken against the accuser. They wanted to make sure that there were consequences for making false charges against a pastor.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]