Author Topic: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!  (Read 10060 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2021, 03:38:06 PM »
Pastor Culler:
What the future holds is in the hand of God.

Me:
And church conventions.
And those who can sway church conventions towards certain actions.

I guess you're saying that God is only somewhat sovereign? ???

Nope. But the sovereign God uses human means to accomplish the divine purposes. God didn't put Jesus on the cross, the Roman officials did, spurred on by the Jewish crowd.

I think you miss the point. Pr. Culler was questioning Charles' addition by which Charles seems to imply that God is only partly sovereign. I'm sure Pr. Culler agrees that God works through means, one being church conventions.


I have no doubt that the sovereign God uses those people who sway church conventions. Why would Pr. Culler question that? I doubt that he, or any of us, would question the power of prayer to sway God without compromising God's sovereignty.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2021, 04:49:14 PM »
That should’ve been my point, obviously. Of course God exercises sovereignty through church conventions. I believe that. Except when he doesn’t.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

George Rahn

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2021, 07:59:01 PM »
I guess you're saying that God is only somewhat sovereign? ???


Nope. But the sovereign God uses human means to accomplish the divine purposes. God didn't put Jesus on the cross, the Roman officials did, spurred on by the Jewish crowd.

Lots of irony here.  So God didn’t put Jesus on the cross, eh?  Roman soldiers and Jews were/are God’s people in the best sense of that phrase.

Aren’t they God’s creatures from the get go?

Is the crucifixion so godless that God wasn’t involved?  Wasn’t Jesus guilty of His own death?  See Mark 14:60-62
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 08:06:59 PM by George Rahn »

Juan Jeanniton

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2021, 10:21:48 PM »
I think you still don’t get it. Ordination, that is, setting a person aside for ministry of the word and of the sacrament, is done by the church body, the national church body. Normally, among us, the congregation does not ordain people. (That has occasionally happened, but our national church bodies are not structured that way.)
The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation.

I am glad for your reply. But what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS? (To this day, WELS and CLC still restrict the congregational vote to adult males!)

Charles Austin

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2021, 10:53:23 PM »
If true, that is their loss.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Juan Jeanniton

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2021, 12:21:16 AM »
If true, that is their loss.

But you still have not answered my question: what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2021, 02:25:43 AM »
I guess you're saying that God is only somewhat sovereign? ???


Nope. But the sovereign God uses human means to accomplish the divine purposes. God didn't put Jesus on the cross, the Roman officials did, spurred on by the Jewish crowd.

Lots of irony here.  So God didn’t put Jesus on the cross, eh?  Roman soldiers and Jews were/are God’s people in the best sense of that phrase.


No, God did not physically put Jesus on the cross. In fact, Jesus declares that God abandoned him on the cross.

Quote
Aren’t they God’s creatures from the get go?


Yup. Adam and Eve were God's creatures from the get go, too; but that doesn't mean they always did what God wanted them to do. However, from our sinful behaviors God can make good happen.

Quote
Is the crucifixion so godless that God wasn’t involved?  Wasn’t Jesus guilty of His own death?  See Mark 14:60-62


However, Luke 22:67 indicates that even when Jesus spoke the truth about himself, the authorities were not going to believe him. (Thinking that the truth is a lie is not new in politics.) So, I wouldn't say that Jesus is guilty of his own death. He was aware that it was going to happen, but he did nothing to try and stop it from happening.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2021, 02:40:25 AM »
If true, that is their loss.

But you still have not answered my question: what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS?


Women certainly vote in the ELCA. Our synod and churchwide assemblies seek to be 50% women voting members.


Women voting in conventions goes back to 1948 in the old ALC. A congregation I served (some time after that) was noted for electing the first female delegate to that district convention. There was a debate on the floor about whether or not she could be seated. The district president, E. H. Fritschel, ruled that she had been duly elected by the congregation and would be seated as a delegate. (He made his decision without taking a vote of the people.)


(I got to know "Doc" Fritschel in his retirement years. He would sometimes introduce himself as, "Doc (don't call me bishop) Fritschel." Apparently, he didn't agree with the change of terminology. He also made a comment at the final district convention before the ELCA was formed about the local fire department wanting their jacket back. This was in reference to the red chasuble that the bishop wore for the opening eucharist. (He also had an opinion about that.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2021, 09:16:04 AM »
It was posted:
But you still have not answered my question: what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS?
I comment:
You weren’t paying attention. Obviously I meant the ELCA, but in congregations of the Missouri Synod where women are allowed to vote, I would assume that women get to vote on calling a pastor.
P.S. The ELCA is not a synod. The ELCA is composed of 65 synods.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Juan Jeanniton

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2021, 10:41:09 AM »
It was posted:
But you still have not answered my question: what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS?
I comment:
You weren’t paying attention. Obviously I meant the ELCA, but in congregations of the Missouri Synod where women are allowed to vote, I would assume that women get to vote on calling a pastor.
P.S. The ELCA is not a synod. The ELCA is composed of 65 synods.
I am glad that you replied. I also read the reply of Mr. Stoffregen:
If true, that is their loss.

But you still have not answered my question: what Lutheran synod are you talking about when you say, "The congregation votes, and that includes women, to decide whether a particular ordained person will be the pastor of that congregation"? The ELCA, or some other synod like LCMS?

Women certainly vote in the ELCA. Our synod and churchwide assemblies seek to be 50% women voting members.

Women voting in conventions goes back to 1948 in the old ALC. A congregation I served (some time after that) was noted for electing the first female delegate to that district convention. There was a debate on the floor about whether or not she could be seated. The district president, E. H. Fritschel, ruled that she had been duly elected by the congregation and would be seated as a delegate. (He made his decision without taking a vote of the people.)

(I got to know "Doc" Fritschel in his retirement years. He would sometimes introduce himself as, "Doc (don't call me bishop) Fritschel." Apparently, he didn't agree with the change of terminology. He also made a comment at the final district convention before the ELCA was formed about the local fire department wanting their jacket back. This was in reference to the red chasuble that the bishop wore for the opening eucharist. (He also had an opinion about that.)
I know that this is true for conventions. But what about local congregational Voter Assemblies? When did women in the old ALC first get the right to vote in congregational Voter Assemblies in the respective local congregations?

Charles Austin

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2021, 10:52:11 AM »
Pastor Stoffregen wrote (and do you have a problem with respectful honorifics?):
Women voting in conventions goes back to 1948 in the old ALC.
You persist in asking when women first got the vote in congregations.
What does it matter, and why? And why do you care? What is your point here?

Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Charles Austin

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2021, 11:02:48 AM »
You are reportedly a Seventh-day Adventist. If that is true, do you agree with what is said about women in the following paragraphs taken from the Seventh-day Adventist website? Women are elders And even perform the functions of pastors in SDA congregations.

“The delegates at the 1990 General Conference Session did in fact vote to approve allowing women to serve as elders, and even to allow women employed as pastors who have been voted as elders by a local congregation to perform ministerial functions such as baptisms and weddings. The documentation can be seen at either the GC Archives website or the Adventist Review archives web page.
   In fact, a careful look at the history of the Adventist movement indicates that throughout its history there have been women serving as local elders, as preachers and as pastors. Although it has also long been the practice for only men to become ordained ministers, the arguments that this is a doctrinal requirement are more recent. There is nothing in Scripture or Adventist tradition that makes the office of ordained elder and ordained minister significantly different from one another. Ellen White, the most revered founder of the denomination and a woman believed by most Adventists to have exercised the ministry of a prophet, was recognized by the GC with the credentials of an ordained minister for much of her life.”
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Juan Jeanniton

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2021, 11:34:58 AM »
Pastor Stoffregen wrote (and do you have a problem with respectful honorifics?):
Women voting in conventions goes back to 1948 in the old ALC.
You persist in asking when women first got the vote in congregations.
What does it matter, and why? And why do you care? What is your point here?

You actually ignored my real question, which is: When were women first granted the congregational vote in the old American Lutheran Church? I didn't ask about any non-Lutheran denomination. Your comments about my SDA denomination have nothing to do with the question of women suffrage in the old ALC.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2021, 11:43:00 AM »
The 1969 LCMS Convention in Denver passed a resolution that allowed women to
vote in parish voters' assemblies.  It is up to individual congregations to change
their constitutions if they so desire for this to happen.

Part of the rationale for allowing women to vote was the fact that widows had no
voice in the calling of a pastor.  It was believed that giving widows the right to
vote when calling a new pastor was a big step forward.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Some Cases of Conscience on Lutheran Church Government!
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2021, 01:09:40 PM »
You actually ignored my real question, which is: When were women first granted the congregational vote in the old American Lutheran Church? I didn't ask about any non-Lutheran denomination. Your comments about my SDA denomination have nothing to do with the question of women suffrage in the old ALC.


Women (namely, my mother) have been voting in old and new ALC congregation as long as I can remember, and I'm 71-years old. I don't have any official documents of the old ALC which disappeared in 1960 when "The [new] ALC" was created.


The Constitution of the ALC (the 1960 version) has no restrictions as to membership nor the right to vote. In fact, it includes this article: "6.34. Individuals, clergy and lay, shall not be denied membership in a constituent congregation, nor shall this Church place restrictions on or deny rights to persons, because of race, color, national origin, or sex."


In regards to some other discussions in this forum, it also includes: "6.33. The status of the clergy differs from that of the laity only as to function."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]